To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

But the issue isn't about making it work for her really. It would be.

"We would love you to come but need assurances that the other children won't be harmed during this holiday"

As a SEN parent I can definitely tell my life is so much more shit than anyone I ever knew with neurotypical children.

“The rota for keeping an eye on the kids sounds perfectly reasonable, with 10 adults there, and hardly an enormous sacrifice, if it means your friend gets to come.”

It’s reasonable if people are happy to do it, but they’re not. They’re not unreasonable to not want to do it, either. They’re allowed to want a holiday that best suits them and their children.

At least one couple has point blank refused to go if the boy does, given that he injured their daughter. There isn’t going to be a big group holiday, whether the friend comes or not.

A rota for caring for a child with special needs on holiday doesn’t sound relaxing. What’s the point even going if the whole thing has to be that regimented? And you’re already 2 parents down because the ones whose daughter was injured aren’t coming (it’s ok to exclude them as apparently it was her fault because it must be).

But the issue isn't about making it work for her really. It would be.

"We would love you to come but need assurances that the other children won't be harmed during this holiday"

I’d go further than that to be honest. Children not being harmed should be the absolute bare minimum. Children and adults able to enjoy themselves on holiday would have to be assured. If the other children’s activities would have to be curtailed or drastically changed (for example being constantly supervised when they might instead have been able to enjoy a modicum of freedom) then no.

I agree. I go on holiday to relax with my family, not to be on a rota to look after another person's child with challenging behaviour and to stop injuries occurring. If that is the option, I'd rather stay at home frankly. Not everyone feels comfortable parenting another person's child and why should they? I agree with PP that there seems to be an awful lot of vitriol directed at all the female friends in this scenario for not wanting to supervise after a child that isnt even theirs, yet not one iota of criticism of the deadbeat dad that wont step up to parent his OWN child and help his child's mother.

Presumably because the OP has control over her own actions but none over the deadbeat dad?

Maybe my perspective is skewed by having a child with severe SEN, but keeping an eye on this lad and the other children doesn’t sound particularly onerous to me. I really don’t believe that the younger
kids wouldn’t need some watching if he weren’t there.

But being alert for a child that's not yours is more stressful. Especially if you know they're prone to violence.

It would need to be the parent assuring everyone that this isn't going to happen and she will be on him constantly

Of the 5 families going who wants them there? Surely if almost all don't, then they shouldn't be invited. I wouldn't want a violent child there regardless of his issues. And I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on a rota, I can't imagine any of your friends wanting to do that either. This would probably be a deal breaker for the friendship though.

I guess it depends how important it is to this group of friends that their other friend is able to have a holiday.

I have an autistic son and if I was invited to a big villa full of kids, adults who "want to relax" aka get pissed and irresponsible and a pool, my answer would be "FUCK NO!"

Did the OP mentioned getting passed and irresponsible

We’re social creatures but we’re also individuals with our own perspectives.

We may or may not choose to live primarily for ourselves, and that is something for an individual to decide. Most people manage a balance, but again that’s based on individual judgements. Where one person would put themselves out, another wouldn’t, and where the latter would put themselves out on another occasion, the former wouldn’t.

Friends are there for the good and bad times, but there’s give and take in that. There’s also times when a friend may choose to prioritize themselves and/or their children. The friends in question clearly have been there for the good and bad times, and have included the friend, but they also have their own needs, as well as limits they’re fully entitled to.

^and sometimes, however much you may want to, you can’t in fact meet the needs of everyone.

No, but I'd bet my last fiver that unless they're all teetotallers once they all get in "holiday mode" the drink will be flowing. They'll not want to watch their own NT kids adequately, never mind watching out for someone else's with SEN. OP's friend would be nuts to accept an invitation!

Could you go somewhere in he UK just for a weekend like centre parcs and invite everyone thrm people can have their own individual accomodation and their are plenty of activities to keep everyone busy. If it were my friend I'd invite them or forget the group holiday all together. Maybe with he proviso that any sign of dangerous behaviour and there will be consequences. Its awful for your friends and her son but also its not fair on the other children being subject to a dangerous situation and constant threat of assault.

@neverbeenskiing as parent of a SEN child I thank you most heartily for this post. Now please go on a tour and tell all the professionals who keep dishing out the same cut-and-paste patronising advice to us please!

I agree. My ND child is not like this one, but alcohol or nor, on the information given I wouldn't trust any promises of coordinated help if I were the friend. People don't know what they're signing themselves up to and can't be assumed to be capable of actually sticking to their promises once faced with the reality of them.

So the entire friendship group should be bound forever more to holidays that will only be fine for this friend. Forget that every other person actually wants to go on this type of holiday but no let's put everyone on a rota at Centre Parcs. Don't be so ridiculous

I think the issue of SEN blurs people's perception of what's reasonable, because, it is hard to know what behaviour is a choice that a child has control over and what is symptomatic of their neuro divergence. It can be hard to distinguish between 'deliberately naughty behaviour' and 'demonstrating a lack of understanding of physical and social boundaries when playing with others'.

If the OP has posted that her friend had a son who is epileptic and would need close supervision in the pool to keep him safe, but one family didn't want him to come behave he'd once had a seizure and kicked their daughter, I wonder if there would be more sympathy for both child and parent.

Please note, I know nothing about epilepsy and really hope that my analogy isn't offensive or overwhelmingly wrong. I can see both sides and I'm trying to come up with an equivalent that takes the behavioural element out if the equation, because that seems to be where the issues lie.

Posters, quite reasonably saying that they'd prioritise their child's safety, do you still feel the same in a scenario where you know for sure the injury was beyond the child's control?

Sorry - very rambly, but largely trying to question both my own prejudices and the defensiveness I feel as the parent of two boys that I imagine many MNers would describe as "boisterous" or "spirited" with the scariest of scare quotes.

Posters, quite reasonably saying that they'd prioritise their child's safety, do you still feel the same in a scenario where you know for sure the injury was beyond the child's control?

Not really no, the outcome is the same.

Del Boy himself wouldn't be able to sell this.

It would really help if you could set this out in paragraphs.

It's a tough one. My godson is Autistic and at times he struggles to manage his behaviour. Is a loving and funny boy but we do have to ensure there is adult supervision around.

I would never dream of excluding them from a girls trip. She has enough exclusion to deal with in her life without the people closest to her doing it as well. Talk to her, invite her and support your friend. If the child is good in adult company maybe offer to take him with a couple of you, by the pool to give her a break. It can be so tough with a child with ASD, look at helping to support not exclude.