To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

Absolutely this. I can't understand the mindset that all the rest of the children must suffer just to include one child.

It's not fair, and it's not right. It should be the safety and wellbeing of the majority, not a minority at the expense of the majority.

Absolutely this...it's NOT one day out of 365 days, it's a 10 day holiday that you you and your partner lose ONE FIFTH of looking after someone else's kid who is hard to parent as well as your own. It is a huge ask.

When he is there it is drama the entire time

Also this affects EVERYONE, not just the stand in for the day babysitter parents but every other single person there. It ruins it for EVERYONE. Every parent there will be hyper vigilant not just the allocated for that day ones....

I don’t need a pat on the back for just doing a normal thing, cheers.

They aren’t awful for leaving out their friend… they just aren’t very good friends.

Don't think you quite get the point of my comment. Quite in spite of yourself I suspect.

I might get flamed for this but I would go on holiday with the group, I wouldn’t invite her but I wouldn’t let her find out from someone else but talk to her first. You mentioned that this child has injured the child of another family in the past and from your story it’s obvious that this is a very real risk to happen again. Of course it’s heart breaking for her but let’s be realistic: it’s not fair to expose the other kids to this kind of risk and from my point of view, it would be selfish of her to expect everyone else to give up their holiday or expose their kids to fysical danger to not hurt her feelings. It’s incredibly sad that she can’t go but unfortunately, this is life sometimes, it’s unfair, but it’s the reality that you’re dealing with. To minimize the emotional damage, I would tell her in person that this is the choice you’re making and that you know it sucks for her and that it was a very difficult decision to make.

You’re being unreasonable to think that you could do a better job at parenting. You have no idea how utterly exhausting it has been for your friend for a long time.

I wouldn’t have wanted to go because it would be too tiring but it’s so isolating for your friend. No-one really gets it except for other SEN mums and it can be very lonely.

I don’t understand the ‘why should you get to relax when she doesn’t?’ sentiment. She doesn’t get to relax because she’s parenting her own child. Yes it sucks, but why does that mean her friends don’t get to enjoy a holiday without the extra stress/the risk of injury to their own children?

Unfortunately OP you have already been judging your friend, you think you know better than her how to parent her child with your strategies. Take note of the PP who mentions safe place & how all children can behave worse for their own parents than for others.
You have all been discussing a trip away behind her back & making judgements about both her & her child. If she ever finds out you will already have seriously damaged your friendship.
NT children push & fight also, have none of the other children ever hurt each other? Really?!
The incident you talk about is a push that resulted in an accident, can friends really not see that just because one of the children involved has SEN? What preceded the incident? Why was the fact the first child wouldn't move not dealt with?
You are discussing a trip away with multiple pre-teen/primary children & think that they won't need constant supervision by someone?
& Yes I have a SEND teenager, am a widow & have very little support.
I also have lots of friends who say they will help but don't actually assist & in reality they couldn't anyway as my child wouldn't accept it

Happens all the time at work. Mums can’t work Christmas and those without kids are called selfish for not wanting to cover.

The fathers of the kids all work very difficult stressful jobs and couldn’t possibly take any time off to assist. Apparently that’s perfectly acceptable and Rebecca in Accounts is to blame for ruining Christmas.

The dad has him very occasionally and her mum and dad have him the odd night too. But not much because they find him challenging.

OP also added that the dad wouldn’t even take him if asked unfortunately.

Op, has your friend taken her 10yr old on holiday abroad before? (Assuming you are planning on going abroad) How was he?

To be honest, it sounds as though the dynamic of the holiday, with so many people, would just be setting the child up to fail.

I respectfully disagree.

A villa holiday will likely cut the costs down, the kids will have each other to play with, the parents can take turns looking after the kids so couples/small groups can pop off for a date night/shopping etc which they might not be able to do in their individual families. This can’t be done with a child with these needs. It changes the whole dynamic.

And no one knows if this will “devastate” the other parent. It wouldn’t devastate me. And as I’ve said, I have a child with high needs. I might be a little sad wishing things could be different, but devastated, absolutely not. It might not be her cup of tea or she might not be able to afford it. She may completely understand where they’re coming from.

And with your mindset, although very kind, my friends would miss out on a whole lot for the sake of including one of my children which seems a real shame to me. That’s not fair either is it?

People can’t live their lives not doing things that may upset others. Not everything is for everyone.

A holiday with him there sounds like it’ll be stressful and a bit shit all round tbh, even if you’re in separate accommodation (which presumably rather defeats the point). I wouldn’t be going on holiday with a child who would push mine off a climbing frame, SEN or no SEN. I’d take the opprobrium and accusations of being a shit friend or ableism or whatever over that, or just not go at all before I’d go along with that.

Ditto as a step parent, I've battled DP as apparently their step dad is just so brilliant, he takes them to football, cinema etc, but if I want to chill on a Sunday night and leave DP to put them to bed, or if I suggest to DP that he takes them on a bike ride, it's just a ploy to get rid of them all, I'm simply not engaged in the family unit. Great isn't it, men get to be the fun ones, but I spend my weekend organising, washing, cleaning, feeding, bathing, preparing for school, and I'm not comparing to the fun step dad of the hour. This, I grant you, has passed, this is resentment of old because it really made me question if I was good enough, maternal enough etc, and I sincerely do what I do happily and with love for the children and DP, but I really resent that, as the female, I do the typical female duties but it isn't appreciated because that's just what I'm expected to do, because I have boobs. Its just such a massive piss take.

Anyway, I derailed. Sorry!

So you go with one or two other families. A group holiday with 5 out of 6 families, the 6th one deliberately excluded, is just unnecessary.

I do understand why some of the parents would be uneasy about this but there are a lot of options other than just saying, oh well fuck it, let's exclude one of our oldest friends.

You can't say that OP's life or anyone's life is easy by comparison, there could be any number of dynamics at play that you don't know about. Having a child with SEN is not the only difficult thing that happens to people.

Surely if you look outside yourself for a moment you can see that OP's friend should not throw the whole friendship away by over reacting to not being invited on this one holiday when it sounds like she does get invited to lots of other nice things with this group of friends and as you yourself acknowledge, finding good friends when your child is ND is not at all easy.

I'm sure OP's friend wants support and understanding of her feelings and difficulties but that works both ways in a sustainable friendship and so she should hear out OP's reasoning that this holiday would not be suitable for her son.

To be honest I’m not sure how this is a thing- can’t you just talk to her? Presumably she knows her child and what will and won’t work for him?

Why are you going behind her back and second guessing her? If my mates wanted this holiday there would be a group discussion where they would say we fancy a shared villa and I would say, fuck no- nightmare for all involved, I’ll get a hotel and hang out a bit or I would just say not for us, bloody kids, have a good time.

“You have no idea how easy your life is by comparison, to hers, where you don't have to listen night after night after night about how your kid was rejected, ignored, made fun, spoken down to like they were an idiot by the teachers etc.”

It sucks, but it’s not anyone else’s fault, and nor is it their responsibility to disadvantage themselves and their own children whenever they want to do something.

by the sounds of it they do include her in play dates and get togethers, but because of his propensity to hurt the other children they don’t want to risk that happening on a holiday. The situation may suck, but that doesn’t mean they’re being unreasonable.

“I guess you just want a holiday without the stress, Fair enough but as a parent of an SEN child I'd want a very very big apology and a lot of kindness and understanding and empathy as you explained this to me and I yet again had to sit this out, even though i am already utterly broken by my children.”

I don’t think they should have to grovel and apologize for this.

What about leaving behind the family that really objected. To be honest it's bad enough that you are all having conversations about this behind her back.

The family whose little daughter was injured by this boy, you mean?

But they all want to go together because they think they’ll all have a lovely time. They’re allowed to do that, they’re allowed to have a holiday without the fear of another child hurting their children, causing upset and them having to essentially parent the other child.

As I said, I would never expect my friends to do this for me, I would decline the offer. I would understand completely.

I also think “uneasy” is a bit of an understatement. I think one family, fairly, are dreading the thought of it. So invite all 6 families, and they miss out. Again not fair.

I think OP is coming across as being very concerned about not wanting to make her friend feel excluded. But I also think they have fair reasons for wanting their holiday the way they want it.

This is all if’s, buts and maybes. Other mum may be fine with it, she may be mortally offended and never want to speak to any of them ever again. That’s her choice entirely.

This holiday is not for a random collection of people, who happen to all want to go to the same place, this is something you want to do, because you are all friends together. If you want to do something 'as friends', it is generally considered important to do something that every single one of your friends within that established friendship group is able to do, especially if it is going to be the 'big event' of the year. Missing out on one of the ten coffee dates every year, not a big deal. Missing out on an event that will be talked about for the remainder of your friendship, a big deal. Generally, you would try to establish as big a participation as possible for such an event, in terms of scheduling, affordability, awareness of each other's medical circumstances, etc.

With group friendship comes compromise, and as her situation cannot be changed even if she would be willing (she can hardly change her son's ND), then the ones who need to do the compromising are the rest of you, either by taking on a bit more care duties around her DS, or more reasonably, by picking an activity where she could actually partake in more easily when her DS is with family (so something closer and of lesser duration) or where he is less likely to be triggered if present (or better supervised).

If you cherish her friendship, you pick something different to do, and do not go ahead with this not-truthfully-whole-group holiday. If you go ahead with the plan, you will have to accept that she will consider herself as no longer an equal member of the friendship group, and that will hurt both her and you, as you know that this exclusion was not caused by anything she could have reasonably helped. A guilty conscience may then be the key souvenir of an otherwise great time.

So the kid who was shoved off the top of the climbing frame was at fault because she wouldn't get out of his way?