To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

I am an unashamed fan of big group holidays but dynamics are absolutely critical to enjoyment. I have really good friends that I would not vacay with and top tier acquaintances who I happily would. Factors for not considering are children's ages/sexes/friendships, number of children, children's behaviour, parenting styles, lazy husbands, attitudes towards money.

I would personally not consider this arrangement because it sounds as though the dynamics among the children will not be restful and you'll spend a lot of time refereeing and engaging in "he did this", "she did that" "you never believe me", "why do you always take his/her side"? etc etc. to the extent that you end up having to keep certain people apart and it's just not fun.

However, that said,I also wouldn't invite 5/6 of a social group for any reasons, as that would be hurtful- I'd follow the "kids party rule"and say no more than half, or all.

I think a lot of us are coming at it a certain way because we have children with Sen. It’s very hard and incredibly isolating. I am very aware of my children’s behaviour and watch them constantly. You’d think though that a lot of MNers have children who’ve never done anything wrong.

I get your point OP and holidays should be relaxing but are they ever relaxing with kids? Your friend might not want to come. I do understand some parents can be a bit oblivious to their children’s behaviour. As a parent of a child with Sen it is a very hard and lonely path to walk.

That's the point though, YOU have a SEN child, much like I have grandparents needing round the clock care. I don't expect the world to sacrifice themselves for that. All this talk about relaxing? It's their money and their life. I'm sorry for you, but the world doesn't stop revolving for your situation, it certainly doesn't mean just because you don't get a day off, no one should!

If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.

Oh god you sound smug. The true voice of someone who doesn't have an SEN child, but is happy to explain what someone who does is doing wrong 🙄

What I'm laughing about is how "relaxing" you think a holiday with five families and many children is going to be. Please do come back and tell us!

My DD is neurodiverse & I would likely decline a holiday like this. She would find it way too overwhelming. We have done holidays with friends/ family in the past & made it work by staying in separate rooms/ apartments. If you do all decide to go & exclude her then there’s no way that she won’t find out- social media, something slipping out in conversation. And that is brutal. Also all the people being so precious about a violent child- are you saying you’ve never seen a NT child push or shove another child. What an absolute joke! Also five families & assorted DC having a relaxing holiday- yeah, good luck with that.

Well it’s not just up to OP, is it? OP is the one agonizing, but at least one other couple has given a definitive ‘no’ (understandably, as their child has been injured before).

It’s one or the other, not both. That’s assuming that the ‘invite them’ and the ‘don’t invite them’ camps don’t split into separate contingents. What is the split, OP? If there’s more than one couple that want to exclude him, are they likely to just go altogether anyway?

This!

@GameOverBoys I have an autistic pda’er with severe combined type ADHD. Until it’s your life you absolutely can not get it.

I would never take my son on a holiday like this because it would be hell for him, and consequently for me- but my friends would never just not invite us. Wtaf?!

One of my best friends kids has an attachment disorder and is a risk taking, hyper, emotional whirlwind who is downright dangerous to himself and others when he isn’t watched. Really hard to deal with… we have him to stay regularly and take him away on holiday with us at least twice a year- this year we will have taken him on 4 separate holidays. My friend is a single parent and she needs a break- we love her and we love him, we would never leave them out!

Really though how far does one have to put themselves out to not be classed as ablist?

All of this group regularly get together and that involves this child. They want one trip that’s “relaxing” they are not trying to banish this mother and her children forever they just want a day off from policing his behaviour towards their children?

Are we really saying nobody that has a friend with a disabled child can ever do anything as any kind of group that isn’t geared up to that one child? That everyone else here should have an on edge break so this one mum gets a break at the genuine expense of her friends? Because it’s not holiday for people suddenly to take on extra care of a child who needs more care than they already give their own, especially in a strange places for said child.

That the parents of the child who was shoved and ended up falling off play equipment should be the ones to miss out either? That’s a bit victim blamey isn’t it. Sorry he hurt your child but ok you don’t come.

You would really expect your friends to pay £200-£500 for a week away to basically help you babysit your child, so you get a break leaving them all to basically need a break to recover from said break. Honestly.

I have a quite profoundly SEN daughter - now grown up. Under no circumstances whatsoever would I want or expect someone else to have supervised her on holiday as part of some rota. Unless they all know the child and their triggers extremely well (unlikely) I simply wouldn’t be confident they could keep them and the other children safe. Add in a swimming pool and it’s a disaster waiting to happen. There’s also no way I would look after someone else’s SEN child in a big group no matter how well I knew them

Jesus Christ! No one is expecting everything to revolve around us- the whole world is set up to make life spectacularly hard & inaccessible for ND people. All we’re saying is that if you want to include your supposed friend then you would consider making some adjustments. And if you don’t want to then we won’t ever be able to go on holiday with you. So thanks for that.

Can you have the conversation with her? The obvious solution would be if she had a partner or grandparent who could take the older child for a separate break, that might be better for him too? I don't think you are beign unreasonable to worry about the knock ons.

Why is inclusion of one child more important than the safety and wellbeing of the rest?

If he has physically hurt some of the other kids in the past then I don't think it's fair to say that the other parents are being ableist. Most parents I know will put the physical safety of their own children first.

One of my friends has this exact situation in a friendship group and has just returned from a second holiday of needing to watch her child as though she is a toddler (she's not), because a friends older child is unpredictable and violent.

Pat on the back for you.
People are not awful for not doing that and wanting to prioritise their holidays and their children's safety.

I think that one of those complexes with separate villas/apartments and a nearby beach/shops is the solution here. Something like the Caybeach Sun in Playa Blanca.

Exactly this!

If I was in your position I’d go for one of the following:

• don’t do the group holiday as it’s unfair to leave a family out.
• do the holiday but organise a fairly regimented rota where each family gets a period of time ‘on duty’ where they literally mark the child (like you would in netball)/give him lots of attention and distraction, thus making it safe and comfortable for everyone. You could organise this between yourselves without letting the mum know.

The world is set up to make life awkward for anyone that doesn't fit a very specific category, not just SEN. It is so adsurd how entitled some ND parents come across, like they are the only ones to bloody suffer in life.

I am a parent of disabled child, I've always wanted to go away with friends but hasn't happened before, I do sympathise u till u starting saying how u would parent. U have absolutely no idea how you would parent , my child went to sleep at 2am this morning and woke up at 8am she has to be closely supervised the whole time she is awake due to safety of her and others, sometimes things go out the window when u have to be on call 24 hour 7, I'm very lucky I have my husband who can tag team with me , single parents are not as lucky. If we was invited we would have to say no but maybe compromise on maybe finding somewhere else and not being there whole time. U need to have honest conversation with her. Its not like she won't know her situation

Does the friend really not have any self awareness about the challenges that her son tends to pose?

I mean, I’m thinking of a friend of mine, whose son has ADHD. We’ve mostly found way to work around difficulties so that we can have days out together and let our kids play together etc. But she is realistic about the fact that some situations aren’t really suitable/possible for him, and does not expect everyone else to stop doing things that might not be suitable/possible for her son.

Too. Bloody. Right. What is it with being bloody female and this maternal expectation towards every child that ever popped out, while dad's stand around cooking meat and drinking, barely remembering the kids are even there.

My old friend group did similar to me and my DC whose behaviour isn't challenging but as a wheelchair user, it means planning anything is more difficult. It was instigated by one woman in particular but they all went along with it. I walked away from the group, who wants to be friends with people like that. Was incredibly hurtful. Be careful, it could end your friendship. If you're willing to risk that then enjoy your holiday, she's probably better off without you.

There at NT children playing outside right now, that I can hear. (I know their parents) and they are back and forth to their parents because 'he hit/kicked me', 'he took my bike', 'wont let me have a go'
Etc etc

I'm very sorry this happened to you but I don't think it's the same as op's situation. Not wanting to be flexible is not the same as being worried that your child might get hurt.

Women are expected to be better parents of random children than the actual parents are

This!! I’d never thought of this but it’s so true. A bit off topic but an old friend of mine was funny with me because I eventually stopped attending her children’s birthday parties or buying presents for them (I don’t even get a text from her half the time on my birthday) once her kids got to about 10…but her own partner and father of her children doesn’t buy presents /attend said parties 😵‍💫

Yes it's almost as if the the other parents aren't excluding this one boy for being ND but quite understandably for their very difficult and dangerous behaviour isn't it? You've hit the nail on the head there quite in spite of yourself I suspect.