AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

I don't think those things should be illegal, no.

I don't care about fetuses or siblings as much as I care about women being forced to give birth. Not bothered about posters thinking I am nasty. As early as possible, as late as necessary.

@eggsbenedict23

"SA is under 1% of abortions" there's no way of knowing if that's an accurate statistic as some women may not admit to being raped as the reason they are having an abortion.

You really are dim. You are not going to convince anyone with your childish arguments.

But she DID know. She googled whether she could go to prison for aborting at 30 weeks! Even if she was unaware exactly she 100% knew she was beyond the 10 weeks allowed. She had known she was pregnant since December and didn't abort until the following May.

She was 34 weeks, even if she had been able to have a legal abortion at thay point she would have had to give birth due to the size. She had sought an abortion earlier before the lockdowns and didn't go through with it.

I get she was in a shitty situation. I get she must have been terrified. But one way or another she was giving birth to that baby because of the gestation, the choice she made was to kill it beforehand.

This.

This is clearly the line in the sand for many posters.

Women - you are (quite literally) fucked

You can have and enjoy sex. That's fine. But you need to accept the risks and consequences.

Yes, and I’m very glad to know what organs you are in possession of.

it wouldn’t bother me. My mother did have an abortion, and as I said earlier in the thread it’s never occurred to me to be something I am required to give a shit about. Actually I am glad she had one, and wasn’t required to continue a pregnancy she didn’t want.

no one knows what her children may or may not feel, so really it’s best not to assume.

I believe that bodily autonomy and human dignity should allow for suicide, yes. Suicide and self harm are usually done as a result of mental illness, so I do believe that there is a place for sectioning during mental health crises so that people don't make a permanent mistake during a temporary crisis, but yes I do believe that the right to bodily autonomy includes the right to do harmful actions to your own body.

Which pretty much fall on women to deal with

Yes, like unwanted pregnancy that can be dealt with via abortion.

God this thread is scary. As ever, anti-abortionists never actually thinking about the child. Both the UNWANTED child and the existing children, who were likely the motivation around this awful situation.

I hope you're allow ploughing your cash into charities which help fostered/adopted children make their way in society and not just sitting behind a screen attacking desperate women in dire circumstances.

Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is barbaric.

She was desperate and desperate people make poor choices.

It's up on BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-65882169

What an awful story.

As I have known more than one woman (and one 13 year old girl) who became pregnant through rape, I cannot tell you how offensive you are.

Out of interest, how many unwanted babies have you personally adopted or provided life long financial and practical support for? Or does your high moral stance only last as long as you're telling women what they can do with their bodies?

You seem to live in a strange world where 'life' and conscious is bestowed to babies at the point of birth and before this they are irrelevant and worthless. Abort your baby during the first contraction = absolutely fine, kill the baby the second it takes its first breath = murder. For many people the line just isn't as clear as that hence the law of the land is what it is.

Your point about adoption is ridiculous. Shall we kill 'unwanted' babies and children because enough people aren't willing to adopt?

I'm confused by a couple of things.

Firstly, the 'forced birth' comments. Birth was inevitable at that gestation. Her actions didnt decrease risk by preventing her from giving birth. She free birthed a fetus she had killed. Continuing the pregnancy wouldn't be forcing her to give birth. There was no option other than to give birth.

Secondly, surely the womens right is to not be pregnant any more. To end the pregnancy, to stop using her body to grow a human. As such, if it's ended at a stage where the baby can live without her, what gives the woman specifically the choice to whether it lives or dies? We say (rightfully) that a man cant decide on abortion because its not his body, but past viability, its not about ending pregnancy any more, and its not about birth, which is by then inevitable, but about whether to take the further step and kill the fetus.

I saw my GP during lockdown and was referred for mammogram which I attended.

Which is why it's so good abortion exists.

It's appalling on every level. She chose to kill her unborn child at a point in time where it could have survived independently.

Prison may not be the answer, but god only knows what is.

All the vaunting about body autonomy - would you do what this woman did? Body autonomy should never give a woman the right to kill her unborn child. I say that having every sympathy with her situation.

Cases like this are why I don't like time limits.

A woman shouldn't be legally obliged to use her body to provide life support for another human being. And she certainly shouldn't be punished for deciding that she no longer wishes to provide that life support. Women don't have late abortions for fun, there's always a reason why she didn't act sooner, and she shouldn't be punished for that.

I saw my GP during lockdown and was referred for mammogram which I attended.

Almost like not everyone was able to access the same level of service.

To say it is barbaric is too harsh when the alternative is to force a woman to endure an unwanted birth and suffer all the potential complications (both mental and physical) that come from that but I do think the 28-week limit is about right.

I don't, however, agree that women should be criminalized or prosecuted for carrying out late self-induced miscarriages. Nor do I think they should be given a pat on the back and sent on their merry way. It should be recognised as what it is, a desperate act by desperate women in need of serious mental health support.

Prison is to rehabilitate and to protect the public from future harm not to punish. I fail to see what protection the public need from this woman or what rehabilitation she could be given in prison that she cannot receive from outpatient mental health services.

But she gave birth?
At that gestation its c section or vaginal birth, just as with term.

Yes….could I wouldn’t have fucking existed therefore I wouldn’t have cared!!

Nobody killed is upset about it once they're dead, but we still think it's wrong to kill people, because we know all the potential for living that has been taken away. Beacuse we view every life as valuable.

A 7 month fetus doesn't care once it's dead.
A 6 month baby doesn't care once it's dead
A 32 year old doesn't care once they're dead.

The tragedy for them all is that their life and cut short and all the potenial they had to live has gone.

You could argue the tragedy is who grieves for them and if a 7 month fetus isn't wantde it's not a tragedy. But then you are arguing the value of your life is depenedent on how other people feel about you and not in itself.

So the death of a lonely homeless person less of a tragedy.

This is where the consistency of logic really gets tsted and only workd if you agree: yes the death of 7 month fetus is a tragedy for that fetus but the womans right to live as he wants is worth it.