AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

I agree with this. I am pro choice but do not support abortion up to forty weeks for non medical reasons. This is an absolutely horrible case. I do not think the woman should have been jailed. God only knows what state she must have been in to be so desperate.

🎻🎻🎻

Your violins, ma’am.

Again with the bold assumption that they will indeed be concerned about that.

I was horrified when I read this, in fact I had to read it twice to make sure I was properly understanding what has been done to this poor woman. Two things stand out for me, she should never have been imprisoned, and the second is the way this will be used by the anti-choice lobby. I hope there is going to be an appeal. She must already be traumatised by the whole thing and I fail to see what purpose is being served by locking her up

Fantastic post from @C8H10N4O2

The poor woman must have been so desperate and frightened.

If the baby bad survived the pills, and been born alive, and then smothered, I think its more likely it would have been murder than infanticide. Maybe the CPS would go down the infanticide route, but it doesn't really fit the criteria.

Infanticide requires that the balance of her mind had been affected by childbirth/lactation, whereas here, we'd have known that her intention was to kill her offspring whether before or after birth.

To knowingly kill a viable fetus, at such a late gestation, to me is horrific. Who knows what kind of death it had. I think its very sad that she's now separated from her children, but that's the deal when parents commit serious criminal offences.

I know I'll be in the minority here, but I am also personally concerned for the welfare of the other kids, as their mother has committed an act of violence towards a viable human who she would have felt kick etc.

Whether the fetus/baby was born alive matters legally, but for that actual being, it's level of consciousness and ability to feel pain and to suffer would be identical in and out of the womb. Morally I see it as no different taking pills to kill a 30w fetus and killing it at birth. Both have the same chance of life without that act, both will experience pain and suffering, both will lose out on life in the same way.

Jesus these theads are nasty.

Do you genuinely feel no pity at the loss of a newborn baby, no matter how tragic the circumstances? I despair.

You're like a child with your arguments.

As someone with a heart it would bother me.

It's not even an early termination. The baby would have most likely survived birth.

Would they not feel sad if their born sibling passed away?

What if let's say one of the "born" children did actually feel sad? Is it just then "none of your business, it was never your sibling"

There is absolutely no need for abortion to exist as it does now, save for the lottery winning odds of someone getting pregnant following rape. You can't get pregnant accidentally so why is "standard" abortion even a thing?

Because every woman has the right to decide what to do with her own body. It does not belong to the foetus.

Yes I believe that women have the right to bodily autonomy regardless of pregnancy. That means that technically yes a woman could abort a healthy full term baby

I concede that your argument has more consistent logic than mine, but I think your logic allows for great evil to be done to tiny babies.

My argument is less consistent because it's trying to balance two competing rights whilst recognising that there is a line whih can be crossed either way, into an immorality which should never be tolerated. Where that line is drawn is a grey area, and we have to agree it as a scoiety. Currently we agree on 24 weeks and I'm Ok to agree to that (npt happy because I'm not certain but OK).

Yes I'm less certain than you because I think there are limits you don't, but I am certain on one thing: killing a 34 week fetus just because thier life may not be ideal is morally wrong and should be illegal.

They must have recognised that access to contraception was a problem during lockdown because the Mini Pill went on sale over the counter in the summer of 2021. So they must have recognised this problem no?

Or was it really done to free up GP appointments.

Because as this case is showing the refusal to recognise the former (that women could not access this healthcare during lockdown) means it must be the latter

Thank you

yes, very good post. Positively Handmaid's Tale the way they are making an example of this poor woman, when rape and assault against women is at an all time high.

The article I read said she found out in December 2019 she was pregnant and aborted in May 2020, with searches on her google history including whether you could go to jail for aborting at 30 weeks. She knew. She clearly has deep regrets and requires significant mental health help, but she knew.

I still don't think a custodial sentence is right in this case, nor would I think it right had she not known. It will discourage women from seeking medical attention. She isn't a risk of reoffending.

I feel bad for the judge as I genuinely don't know what the right call is. She in full knowledge of her actions induced the stillbirth of a viable 32-34 week foetus. I'm pro-choice, but I don't see how you can say anyone saying she shouldn't have been able to do it is a 'forced birther' - at that gestation due to size the only way to get it out is to fully give birth. To an extent someone shouldn't be able to just walk away from that, yet I don't see the benefit of a custodial sentence and the effect on her other children will be profound.

Should bodily autonomy allow for self harm and suicide?

yes, it’s very easy to say I wouldn’t have cared. On account of being fetus, completely unable to comprehend or conceptualise.

You know why I was born? Because my mother wanted and chose to continue a pregnancy. The thought that she would have been forced to do so is deeply unpleasant tbh.

Odd situation, hard to gauge the correct outcome. It’s the fact she knew she was pregnant well before lockdown because she sought an abortion three months prior to the first lockdown. Not sure why she didn’t go through with it then but she ended up leaving it until she was 7 months pregnant. Her defence was that she didn’t know how far along she was but she clearly did given her google searches like ‘Will I go to prison if I have an abortion at 30 weeks’ so…

She still had to give birth to an almost full term foetus at that stage so to kill it beforehand is kind of unbelievable. It would make far more sense to have a live baby and give it up for adoption, surely.

Find it hard to have sympathy with her for those reasons really. When I first read the headline I thought it was barbaric to send a woman to prison for an abortion but then I read the details and realised she knew exactly how far along she was (34 weeks for heavens sake) yet lied about this to obtain abortion pills. Awful for her children, I hope they’re well supported whilst she’s in prison. I’m not convinced prison is the correct place for this woman, I think she does need a lot of psychiatric help.

I think a custodial sentence isnt appropriate. She had a lot going on at home, was apparently pregnant by a man other than her ex husband who she moved back in with for support during lockdown and I guess just chose a really stupid way out of the situation.

I do see it as murder, but I think there are grounds to suggest she wasn't thinking straight, didn't have access to the right support and felt obliged to live with her ex during lockdown which must have been very hard.

I'd like to know why she didn't seek an abortion before. Even in the early 20 weeks would have been much easier on her, and everyone around her than 32-34 weeks.

I think a custodial sentence won't help anyone. All it will do is hurt her and her kids.

It's a complex situation though, and her personality and history would make a huge difference to how I feel about it, I suspect.

She couldn't have known exactly how far along she was because she didn't have a scan. She should have had a scan. She didn't have access to scans which could have given her the information because she was locked down. She had also just had to move back in with her estranged partner while secretly pregnant with another man's child. This is an extreme situation which is incredibly unlikely to reoccur. This woman had very few choices and must have felt completely terrified and trapped. Extreme circumstances can lead to extreme behaviour. Almost every late pregnancy is for medical reasons.

I will never be convinced that forcing women to continue an unwanted pregnancy and be forced to give birth is anything other than barbaric.

Well I wouldn't, would I? Because I wouldn't be here to know about it. By definition. So no, I quite literally wouldn't give a shit about that or anything else because I wouldn't exist. Obviously. Can you really not see how ridiculous that is, as an argument?

"forced to do so" . Actions (sex) have consequences. Why should the baby be forced to die? A whole life ended before it could even begin. Also before you mention SA (which is disgusting and tragic) SA is under 1% of abortions.

Between 32 -34 weeks pregnant

There is absolutely no need for abortion to exist as it does now, save for the lottery winning odds of someone getting pregnant following rape. You can't get pregnant accidentally so why is "standard" abortion even a thing?

You can't get pregnant accidentally? In what world do you live?

And there it is THATS what its really about. Punishing women for having and enjoying sex