AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

No thought for the existing alive children? Just the foetus. Your lot are so tedious.

The mother could easily have died and left the children motherless.

"never going to be a good life" how do you know that for sure? Maybe we should create a society where kids in adoption/social system have a good life. There are many people who were "unwanted" but still don't want to die.

The mother could easily have died and left the children motherless

Quite. She must have been utterly desperate. Let's punish her for that. Good idea.

That's really good news.

As @StrawberryWasp has said above - if you think what this woman did was acceptable, are you of the opinion that abortion on demand should be available up to birth? So a woman shouldn't need to justify anything. If she's not yet given birth, if the baby/foetus is still inside her body, she is entitled to say I do not want to continue with this pregnancy and to end its life?

I would say when the pregnancy is still early and the foetus is just a clump of cells, yes that is fine. But there is a grey area and line somewhere between the two points where I don't agree a woman should be entitled to kill a 40 week old foetus because she doesn't want it, anymore than a one day old baby.

It happened in May 2020 so at the most 69 into lockdown (if it was 31st May.) She was reported to have been at least 30 weeks pregnant at the time.

No will convince me that "this child will have a poor quality of life" (due to socioeconomic reasons) let's kill them

They take it into consideration, but they take it into consideration during plenty of cases. There were obviously psychiatric reports. They don't just let people off, they plead guilty and are given a lower sentence that they then suspend

Or they spend time in a psychiatric unit if it's found appropriate

In the article it said the babies were about 30 weeks when the abortion pills were taken, and one baby survived? I'm very very pro choice, but I can't agree with the sentiment that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy at any stage up to actual birth.

Men pronouncing on women's bodies and actions. What a surprise. Poor woman, poor family, poor baby. Prison should not feature in this. I didn't read the post when I first saw it as I assumed such barbarism happened in USA. Had no idea that we still locked women up for making decisions about their own body but it seems we do. Disgusting.

It's not hard.

A 34 week fetus is a baby, an infant and a child.

Like a lamb is a baby sheep
Or
A mini is a car
Or
A strawberry is a fruit

I hope this is helping unconfuse you?

You must be bewildered by all the pregnant women who talk about their babies, do you wonder who they are talking about?

I wonedr how mant threads there are currently running with women referring to their fetus' as babies? Go and point out to them how it's only a fetus. See how that goes.

Such bad faith arguments on this topic.
Everyone, calls fetus' babies, and you know it.

Yep, it's up there with the comment How would you have felt if you were the abortion?

Absolutely pathetic arguments.

No apology is needed - I just wanted to ensure you didn't think I was calling you anything! :) As someone with SEN DC, I particularly value your opinion as you are bound to be able to relate more keenly to how this woman must have felt at the thought of a sudden unplanned pregnancy with a history of SEN.

To be clear, I'm sure you love all your children equally and that they are all a blessing. However, I'm sure you will also admit that having SEN children puts extra demands on you as a parent.

I don't know either what's right. I don't think a suspended sentence is right because that's still a custodial sentence. However, I suppose it makes the point that if she did it again there would be imprisonment and she's not at risk of reoffending, so... Maybe a suspended sentence that would be automatically spent after a period of X years.

I will agree that there are some conflicting details, but I think I'd always expect some conflicting details in such an emotive case where one of the key witnesses has poor mental health.

Ultimately, what gets me, is that she was impregnated by one man and left to feel trapped by another man. And then sentenced to prison by another man. I don't know what other horrible details are true, but this feels like a woman whose life has been made worse by the patriarchy.

What's pathetic about it?

Would you really have been okay to never have existed?

I've said the balancing of rights means that not one simple logical reason can be applied and why.

So even you can concede that your position doesn't have a logical basis. If you can't defend your position or argue it coherently then it just boils down to "this makes me uncomfortable and therefore shouldn't be allowed". Why shouldn't it be allowed? An arbitrary cut off based solely on your comfort?

Do you want the law chnaged to allow abortion of helathy babaies up to 40 weeks even if the mothers life isn't in danger?

Yes I believe that women have the right to bodily autonomy regardless of pregnancy. That means that technically yes a woman could abort a healthy full term baby, but that just doesn't happen in practice. Late term abortions are almost all for medical reasons. I believe that a tiny number of late abortions would be a reasonable cost if it meant that women could have the right to bodily autonomy which they clearly need.

Good. This is a really sad case and whilst she was found culpable under current law it's not to the benefit of anyone to imprison her for 2 years.

Yes. Wouldn't have known any different.

Well if I'd never existed I wouldn't know about it, would I? Ridiculous level of argument

*What's pathetic about it?

Would you really have been okay to never have existed?*

It's a childish argument and one that doesn't work. If I never existed I wouldn't know anything so yeah I would have been fine with it.

Judge's remarks are up: https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1668266647935754240

Just having a read myself.

Said the mother who tried to seek an abortion. Who is the only person that counts. Nobody else does. All this birther crap about women being forced to give birth to provide siblings... Ugh.

I think abortion should be a criminal offence in certain circumstances. It should not be 100% decriminalised.

I don't think a custodial sentence is the correct answer in this case. Not because of the woman's poor mental health, that's no reason for reducing a custodial sentence. But because her being in prison serves no purpose, for anyone.

There is absolutely no need for abortion to exist as it does now, save for the lottery winning odds of someone getting pregnant following rape. You can't get pregnant accidentally so why is "standard" abortion even a thing?

Babies who are wanted, but born premature, are sometimes saved by the herculean efforts of medical professionals. But perfectly healthy babies who aren't wanted are aborted. Notice the deliberate change of language to help deflect blame. We call premature births "babies", but aborted ones are called "the foetus".

But I digress, she went to prison for basically killing her child.

There's no other way to put it really.

@azimuth299 but it does happen in practice. The woman was 7 months pregnant; if she’d delivered then the baby could’ve lived.

I will never be convinced that allowing women to end a pregnancy up to birth is anything other than barbaric.

It's very easy to say "I wouldn't have cared if I was aborted" when you were F*CKING born alive and got to live your life.