AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - your position is not logically consistent. Either being alive in any circumstances is better than being aborted, or it isn't. I can't see an argument for why viability would make a difference if your views on abortion are based on the right to life at all costs.

I also think that we should be careful to make a distinction between what we think is wrong and what we think should be illegal. I can think something is very wrong but don't think that it should be dealt with by the state (for example adultery). The same with abortion - you can personally think that it's wrong and decide whether or not to do it without insisting that all women follow your particular moral standards.

Especially in the middle of lockdown when normal health services were not available.

Goodness knows how the CPS thought this prosecution was in the public interest. And yet they can't manage to prosecute rapes. Go figure.

Who is the priority? Maybe they both have the right to life?

Both

And that's why, when a friend was carrying twins and had gestational diabetes and all sorts of other complications of pregnancy, she was induced at 26 weeks, despite the potential risks to the babies.

The rights of the mother are paramount imo, until the child is born.

The mothers right to choose to end the babies life moves to second place at 24 weeks and the babies right to life supercedes it.

The mothers life is always prioritised over the babies up until it's born.

There's a big difference between the women's right to choose and protection of the women's life. As I'm sure you know, and this type of conflation is deliberate.

Er, no. That wouldn’t have been the reason why. It’s because the law on infanticide is supposed to provide compassionate treatment for women vulnerable following birth.

@whumpthereitis I have no doubt that a child free woman wouldnt be seen as a sympathetic figure. Women MUST be seen as nurturing.

The state locked her down
The state restricted abortion services.
Like OP said she is now being punished for living within that framework.
So is the state going to be caring for her four children while she is inside or are they going to be expecting family members to step up and do it. Because i know what i would be saying The state caused it The state can deal with it

I can’t see how society is better for her being in prison. In fact I can see how it’s worse off - her existing kids (one with additional needs) are being deprived of their mother for 2 years and the taxpayer is worse off. She’s no risk to society. She’s not going to do it again. A suspended sentence or community service is the right answer IMO.

No, the baby does not have a right to life. That is a right gained at birth. Abortion being prohibited is not the same thing as a fetus having a right to life.

Personally I do think abortion should be completely decriminalised.

This is a tragic case but I don't think you can get away from the fact the woman has done something really awful. I am pro choice but I do also believe that abortions must be carried out in as safe and humane way as possible. It is absolutely terrible to think that she could have caused unnecessary pain and trauma to herself, her unborn baby and her children (if the pills had unintended medical consequences for the mother then the children could have been left without a mum).

I don't think sending abortion pills out in the post was ever a good idea. I think women need to be seen face to face in this situation. I'm not judging her, she was probably in absolute turmoil.

The mothers right to choose to end the babies life moves to second place at 24 weeks and the babies right to life supercedes it.

Nope. The foetus never has a right to life above the mothers.

NHS services weren't available except in very limited circumstances. You were extremely lucky to have a scan for something non life-threatening. You couldn't even go to the dentist!

Sorry but as someone who had a stillbirth at 26 weeks and was begging the midwife to try and get them to breathe, this story is fucking appalling.

She had months to deal with this and chose not to.

Women, not mother.. Foetus not baby.

No to all of that. It has no right to life. It doesn't have a life, until it is born. It's not a person.

Medical.professionals supplying abortion pills through the post should be the crime here...lockdown or no lockdown. Just another person failed during this pandemic when she should have clearly been seen by someone before this was authorised. How will prison help this poor woman

I do think there is a moral difference between killing a 9 week fetus and a 38 week fetus just because you don't want it.

Don't you?

I agree I think the only logical positions are: no abortion at all or abortion on demand for any reason up to birth.

But I think most people feel there are ethical problems with both these positions and try to square this with some sort of balance of the right to choose for a woman and the right to life for a baby.

For me, killing a 34 week fetus because their life won't be ideal is crosses into immoral.

Oh indeed. I absolutely think it’s fucking shit that she’s had to go through legal proceedings. I don’t think it’s right that she’s in prison at all.

I am wondering as to the judges motivations, and whether choosing to imprison her is a calculated decision.

Er , they would have to prove mh problems were the cause. They'd have looked into mh in this case as well.

It's an absolute disgrace. It shouldn't even be a crime nor have been prosecuted- she took the pills after ten weeks, in covid times, no scans or abortions were available in time - she didn't know how far along she was either as she hadn't been able to have a scan.

And that's why, when a friend was carrying twins and had gestational diabetes and all sorts of other complications of pregnancy, she was induced at 26 weeks, despite the potential risks to the babies. The rights of the mother are paramount imo, until the child is born.

@LakieLady She was induced at 26 weeks, not at 22 or something, so they were perhaps also considering the babies' chances of survival.

The docs were probably considering the prospective risks to both mother and children.

It was reported that she thought she had miscarried (it doesn't say but probably bleeding), it was when she felt her stomach getting bigger she grew concerned and started looking up how to conceal a pregnancy. This would have been during lockdown when services were heavily restricted.

Especially in the middle of lockdown when normal health services were not available.

It was May 2020, at the very, VERY most 9 weeks into lockdown.

If she was over 30 weeks pregnant at the time then she was an absolute MINIMUM of 21 weeks pregnant at the beginning of lockdown.

If she also knew 3 months beforehand then she knew before lockdown.

WTAF!!!!!

https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1668261982208684032

It's happened - honestly I am so fucking angry.

Fucking patriarchy - I am livid

You can keep trying to correct me all you like but I'll keep using the language I want.

A 34 week fetus is a baby.