AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

I agree and yes it is tragic, but a woman’s life isn’t always the most important. It’s the deal you’re blown when having a womb. 24 weeks is a pretty good buffer.

No of course you don’t. That’s because you don’t have to use words that have a particular definition in law when enquiring about someone’s pregnancy.

This is a court case where legal definitions
matter. In law, it wasn’t a baby.

It’s very tricky though as if the baby had been born - and yes it very easily can be born at 28 weeks - and she’d gone through the trauma of a premature birth and THEN killed it, I’m sorry but lots of pro abortions mumsnetters would suddenly want her in jail.

I still wouldn't want her in jail. I'd want her to receive significant mental health support, something which our country is sadly severely lacking (even more so during lockdown).

I've never felt anything but sorrow and sympathy for women who conceal pregnancies and then go on to dump or harm their babies. I believe it shows there is a significant need for better mental health care and prenatal care. And better care of women and children all around.

Can you imagine the horror of being stuck in a place where you are afraid to tell someone you live with, be it a partner or a parent, that you are pregnant and to have suffer through an unwanted pregnancy alone all the while fearing what will happen if your partner/parent finds out?

The women who commit these crimes are in desperate need of support, not prison.

I agree and yes it is tragic, but a woman’s life isn’t always the most important. It’s the deal you’re blown when having a womb. 24 weeks is a pretty good buffer.

The woman's life should always be the most important.

its an educated assumption based on it being vanishingly rare for women who have committed infanticide to be imprisoned.

@Newnamenewname109870 - the mothers life will always be more important. That's why if there is any complications then healthcare professionals will try and save the mother first.

That article says she obtained the medicine in May 2020, lockdown started on March 23rd so she was already a minimum of 19 weeks pregnant at the beginning of lockdown. If she really did know for at least three months then she knew a minimum of one month before lockdown.

She requested the pills claiming she was no more than 10 weeks pregnant, she was in fact beyond the legal limit of 24 weeks. Whilst it is a sad case all around the conclusion of the courts was that she was fully aware she was far more advanced in her pregnancy than she told medical professionals to obtain the pills. This is not a teenager, first time pregnant, she's a mother of 4. Yes people can be further along than they realise but there's evidence in this case she knew according to reports.

24 weeks + is very different to the 10 weeks she claimed.

I think that the woman did act illegally in this case but should not have been sent to prison because of it.
As already said, she likely wouldn’t have been to sent to prison if she had given birthday and then smothered the baby.

What I hate is the use of overly emotive language surrounding abortion on this thread.

TW for this post - sorry

There is also a legal definition that up to the end of 23 weeks it is a miscarriage, from 24 weeks it is a still birth. Legally a still birth must be registered, and buried or cremated, there are no such rules for a miscarriage. From 24 weeks the mother is entitled to full maternity leave etc.

@notokaywiththetropes The mother had to give birth so I’m not sure you can say it was not born, legally it was a still birth. You are correct that prior to birth the foetus has no legal rights, but once born they do have the legal right to be registered and to a burial or cremation.

You have no evidence to say this foetus did not experience anything in a meaningful sense - pain? We are talking about a 32/34 week foetus not pre 24 weeks.

Actually it is always more important. Even when abortion is restricted a woman can access it in circumstances where she is at great risk.

Maybe it's always a baby?

That would be because they plead guilty straight away and the judge is able to impose a suspended sentence, which they could have done in this case if she had entered a guilty plea when she first went to court

Around 24 weeks and viability the balance tips to the fetus in my view and a less than ideal circumstance can no longer justify taking their life.

So at 24 weeks, in your view the mother moves to second on the priority list, after a foetus that may or may not survive if it was born at that stage? Fuck that. Mum is priority right up to the point of birth, at which point mum and baby are then separate people and are equal priority.

Maybe it's always a baby?

But it's not.

Maybe it's always a baby?

It isn't.

Okay, so let’s say a fetus is a person. What does that mean, exactly? Because legal persons don’t have the right to the bodies of others either.

@SpidersAreShitheads I haven't called you any names (I appreciate other posters have thrown certain terms around) and I certainly am not saying, 'she was having a shit time, so let's just drop it.'

What I am saying is that her mental health is a significant factor to consider, along with the mitigating circumstances of how difficult it was to access appropriate healthcare. Do see the second article I've posted which has more information.

I worry about what that second article doesn't say. She moved back in with the father of her four children during lockdown so they could bubble together for the kids' sake - she had previously left him and had a relationship with another man (the father of the aborted foetus). It says she didn't feel able to tell him she was pregnant with another man's child.

Why was that? A normal level of trepidation or because she was scared for her wellbeing and safety? We don't know.

I don't think prison is right. I'm not saying there should be no consequences, but do you think prison is appropriate?

Poor poor baby. May it rest in peace.

This

I would imagine there are dangers to the mother taking these tablets so late on and also a risk the baby will survive but with injuries and that's why they are not used for late term abortion. For me that adds some weight to there needing to be some sort of consequences for lying to access the pills. I don't think a prison sentence helps though and I think she must have been very desperate.

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

C'mon, of course she knew she wasn't under ten weeks. She was approx 33 weeks https://inews.co.uk/news/woman-sentenced-abortion-pills-legal-time-limit-1861-law-2404761

She deliberately killed someone who would have lived if she hadn't done what she did.

I agree and yes it is tragic, but a woman’s life isn’t always the most important. It’s the deal you’re blown when having a womb. 24 weeks is a pretty good buffer.

No. Medically, the woman is always the priority, right up to birth. The above might be your opinion, but it's not fact.

So agree. No place for birtherism in the UK.