AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

Yes yes yes, couldn't agree more.

They have sentancing guidelines, they don't just make there own up! Crown Court can only suspend sentences 24 months and under as well so that was out of the question

@therescoffeeinthatnebula - no, absolutely you've not called me any names at all, apologies if that seemed aimed at you because it wasn't. That was more about the general comments that slam any woman who doesn't agree with late-term abortion as "forced birthers" even if you're pro-choice in general.

I think we can all agree she was in an awful situation. And absolutely, since this incident I have no doubt that her mental health has suffered.

And yes, I picked up on the nuances of her situation too. But I guess the point is, we just don't know.

Also, there are indications that she's tried to make herself look better in all of this - the facts don't quite stack up. One minute she's saying that she didn't think she was pregnant, and then the next she is taking abortion meds and insisting that she didn't think she was "that far gone". She's had four children previously, this together with the conflicting information suggests that everything may not appear to be as it seems. Also, if the ex was so terrible - he tried to resuscitate the baby? I don't know. It just feels a bit as if everyone is tripping over themselves to try and find reasons for her doing a dreadful thing.

But the law protects babies in utero which are more than 28 weeks gestation. I am struggling to get past the suffering she would have inflicted. I do think there has to be consequences for that. And I do think it should be a deterrent too.

There are women who think it should be their right to terminate whenever they want. Right up to full gestation. And a light sentence and a slap on the wrists could encourage others to take the decision into their own hands. I appreciate the numbers are tiny, but nevertheless, the infant whose life who ended in an extremely painful and distressing way deserves as much consideration as any other life. And that's not some wild anti-abortion statement - that's backed by the law (which describes it as an infant, not a foetus).

I would be open to listening to what alternatives would be more suitable than prison. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that strikes the right balance.

I agree with @StrawberryWasp 's posts - in late pregnancy it's about balancing up the woman's rights and the infant in utero.

This is such an emotive subject and involves so many potential aspects - lockdown, ?domestic abuse, women's rights, abortion, late terminations, bodily autonomy etc it's something that's always going to stir up strong feelings.

I think we can all agree though that it's a terribly sad case all round.

I actually think being able to access abortion pills online is a step in the right direction however it should not be instead of in-person care but in addition to.

@Frequency Completely agree. It should not be a substitution but as well as.

Sorry, but not knowing how far along are you between 32 and 34 weeks is bit... 😳Surely you know by then you are QUITE far and definitely too late to take pills. I thought she took these pills at 14 weeks or so, but 32-34 is shocking. Pregnancy scans were available, babies were delivered in covid, you just couldn't have partner with you.

Sorry, posted too early.

I would think having the service available remotely would help teenagers who are otherwise too afraid of their parents finding out to access abortion quicker.

You could kill someone with your car and not spend a day in prison. A man can rape a woman and even in the unlikely event that he is prosecuted and found guilty, not spend a day in prison. I can't see how sending this woman to prison is just or proportionate.

A 34 week fetus is a baby.

In YOUR opinion. Medically and legally, it is not.

She wasn’t charged with infanticide. That’s a separate crime covered by a completely separate act.

That childbirth alone has a destabilising impact on the mind of a woman is implicit in the Infanticide act, and for this reason probation is preferred over imprisonment.

I'm with you on that, @whumpthereitis. Our bodies, our choice.

My DM was a nurse in the 1950s, long before it was legal. She had to deal with women who bled out in A&E because they had tried to end a pregnancy. She was bloody overjoyed when it became legal, and safe.

Yes I do believe that there's a moral difference between aborting early and aborting late term, but I don't believe that just because I might find something immoral means that it should be illegal, and that women doing it should be punished by the legal system.

Like, there is a moral difference between having a drunken one night stand after promising your boyfriend of two weeks that you were going to be exclusive, and having a long term affair partner cheating on your husband of twenty years. Both situations are wrong according to my morality. One is "more wrong" than the other. But I don't think that either should be illegal.

In the same way I support bodily autonomy as paramount, and that includes doing things that I would find immoral because bodily autonomy shouldn't only be a right up to the point where I feel uncomfortable.

Do we know how the baby would have died from this medication?

Someone earlier said it would induce labour. Wouldn't a 34 week baby have been likely to survive this?

So how would medication intended to kill a small fetus kill a 34 week baby?

In fairness, the law refers to a 34 week foetus as an infant or a child.

Infant Life (Preservation) Act.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/19-20/34

If we want to argue. Medically (buy not legally) life begins at conception.

Also legally doesn't equal morally. (My previous slavery example)

Everyone is real life talks to pregnant women about their babies.
I bet even you.

Women are taken to court in the UK every year over illegal abortions. Abortion is only allowed in the UK under very specific and restrictive conditions. I have heard of some harrowing cases. It is terrible.

Couldn't agree more! The usual dramatics have come out... not to mention people who don't go to prison for killing someone (even "accidentally" eg someone out drunk in the dark getting hit by a car) but people are saying throw away the key? Ffs grow up.

Everyone is real life talks to pregnant women about their babies.
I bet even you.

That wouldn't mean it's not a foetus. It also doesn't change that legally it is a foetus not a baby.

Let me guess, you think there should be no abortion at all?

The judge said one of the tragedies here was that she didn't plead guilty at the first opportunity because then she would have been eligible to be suspended with full credit - so part of this story is about her either not having access to good legal advice, or not taking it.

A suspended sentence would have got the message across. I don't feel comfortable that this should be criminalised - also lockdown did a number on a lot of people's mental states and housing situations. Yes, services were available, but it is also extenuating circumstances.

I'm so torn on this one. As a standard, the right to an abortion shouldn't be up for discussion, and it should be protected. This case does set a worrying precedent, however I feel this individual case was a depressing mix of failure from healthcare professionals and what I can only assume is absolute blind panic.

We don't know if she was forced into it by a partner, but the prosecution did find evidence from when she would've been about 12 weeks on how to terminate, so that indicates she was aware, and for reasons only she will know she didn't act upon it sooner.

28months is disgusting, and the poor woman is already suffering, I can't imagine what she's been through, but you have to wonder if the truth has really been discovered of the reasons it happened. No one does that lightly.

This is horrific, I am sorry that it happened to you.

There are some immoral behaviours we allow and some we collectively agree as society must not be allowed.

Taking the life of another is one.

I, and the law, view taking the life of a 34 week baby just becuase you choose to is an immorality we should not tolerate.

You think this should be allowed. The law disagrees.

You don't have to guess, you could just read my posts to find out you are wrong.