AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

In summary:

• it sounds like she left the father of her four children, she had another relationship, it didn't work out, and she moved back in with her children's father because of lockdown

• she realised she was pregnant with her ex's child and didn't feel able to let her children's father know (why?)

• she is still receiving mental health support three years on from the abortion, so she must still be suffering from poor mental health

• the paramedics were called as she delivered a stillborn (presumably that's how she ended up in the hospital and the police ended up attending)

That poor baby 😔😢

Oh shit 28 weeks is seriously late! But I agree that no way is prison the answer, especially for those kids she’s left behind. It’s very tricky though as if the baby had been born - and yes it very easily can be born at 28 weeks - and she’d gone through the trauma of a premature birth and THEN killed it, I’m sorry but lots of pro abortions mumsnetters would suddenly want her in jail.

Yes in some situations a newborn baby has priority over a woman.

No I think the woman should always be the priority over a foetus.

not a baby.

I know it’s awful but imagine it’s life if born? 😭the child abuse of failed abortions is horrific.

When a woman is expecting (and wants to have the child) do you ask "how's the fetus getting along?" Or "how's the baby?"

Sorry at 28 weeks it is. My husband was born at 28 weeks and he was definitely a baby…

It's a tough one. Very sad situation and agree re lack of support during lockdown but there's no evidence, unless I've missed it, that she tried to seek an abortion before the limit. A 32 week old foetus is viable outside of the womb, so I can see why the judge has imposed a custodial sentence. This was a baby, albeit a very small one, that was killed, not just a collection of cells. I would imagine the decision to go for 28 months rather than life is because of the mitigating circumstances. What a terribly sad situation all round, for the dead baby, the woman, and her children. How horrendous having to give birth knowing the baby is dead as well - what a tragedy.

Don’t be so ridiculous. You can be pro late abortion but don’t sit there pretending that’s not a baby. It’s seriously offensive. And very stupid.

News says the father had buggered off and she’d been forced to move back in with her ex because of lockdown. Didn’t want him to know she was pregnant by another man.

God knows what her situation was. Was she having to pretend to get back together with her ex in order to survive during lockdown? Forced to let him have sex with her in order to keep a roof over her kids heads? Was he violent, what would he have done if he discovered her pregnancy? So many questions, but undoubtedly a terrible situation.

Doesn’t really matter if you call it a fetus, baby, or giant squid. It’s not a legal person.

And like others have said, you STILL have to give birth to a baby that late. So she is still going through the trauma of birth. After killing it.

Sorry at 28 weeks it is. My husband was born at 28 weeks and he was definitely a baby…

Because he was born. When he was in the womb at 28 weeks, he was a foetus

StrawberryWasp
All of that is terrible.

But worse than being dead?

Yes, a dead fetus does not justify her children, and her, having to endure this.

//

Quite

What does it matter though? The law hasn’t made it a person yet so you can abuse it? Nuts.

and if she’d have killed it after birth she wouldn’t be in prison.

It's me trying to balance the women's right to choose over the fetus'right to life.

Around 24 weeks and viability the balance tips to the fetus in my view and a less than ideal circumstance can no longer justify taking their life.

I agree a total ban would be more logically consistent but I can't square this with what it would mean for so many women.

I fudge it which is what I think most people do, and try to find something which balances the rights of the mother and child.

"not a legal person" used to apply to slavery

When a woman is expecting (and wants to have the child) do you ask "how's the fetus getting along?" Or "how's the baby?"

You'd also say "I'm having a baby" when you're 12 weeks pregnant. Doesn't actually make it a baby. Until it's born alive, it's a foetus. Emotional language doesn't help anything.

She was between 32 and 34 weeks pregnant; and she had a fair idea of it - she knew she'd been pregnant for at least three months, and had suspected it for longer. She'd been searching for how to induce a miscarriage; as well as advice on how to conceal later-stage pregnancies.

She's been sentenced to 28 months in prison.

I've got mixed feelings on this. She knew what she was doing; but she didn't feel she had a choice due to lockdown, and she's suffering for it now.

But my mum took abortion pills at 33 weeks pregnant with me. I survived, but most of my spine didn't, and I've had loads of surgeries. It wasn't expected that I'd be able to walk. I can, and I'm okay - a bit weak and I suffer with back pain, but I'm alright. Perhaps a bit too close to home for me to judge.

You don't know that, unless she was deemed to have serious mh problems then she likely would be

I do have a lot of empathy for the woman. She was in a really difficult position, and it was lockdown.

But at what point do we say "well, we know what she did was terrible and inflicted awful pain on another sentient being, but listen, she was having a shit time so let's just drop it eh?"

Because that's the arguments essentially being put forward here.

I am absolutely pro-choice. But causing the death of a baby in utero at 34 weeks is a truly terrible thing to do. The baby's death would have been slow and painful, it's not the swift, medical process which is carried out in the very, very rare exceptions when a late term abortion is legally agreed.

I appreciate she felt that she had no choice. Sometimes people do terrible things out of desperation, and because they feel as if there is no alternative. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be any consequences for what they did.

Of course there are lessons to be learned. The system is desperately lacking in many ways, and women's healthcare doesn't get anywhere near the investment that it needs. If this could be used as a springboard to make changes then great.

I have two SEN DC, one with significant needs, and I imagine this is going to be really traumatic for her DC. I'd have to be an absolute monster not to feel sorrow for what this whole family has gone through, and now will continue to go through.

But I still feel conflicted. Regardless of the reasons, she did a terrible thing. I'm not a "forced birther" just because I don't believe that it's OK to inflict pain and suffering on a late term baby. We know that babies at this stage feel pain, feel emotions, and everything you'd associate with an actual baby and not just a foetus. The law also agrees - the 1929 Infant Life (Preservation) Act protects babies in utero with a gestation of more than 28 weeks.

I can feel enormous sadness and empathy for what's happened here, while still believing that you shouldn't get away with ending the life of a very late-term baby in utero. There were alternatives but they would have been difficult for her - she chose the option that inflicted unspeakable suffering on a tiny infant. If this baby was outside the womb, there would be a lot less support for her but at this late stage in pregnancy, there's really very little difference.

It matters because the person whose body it is in should, and does, take precedence. If a pregnant woman want to smoke and drink herself into a vodka coma all day every day she is fully at liberty to do so, because being pregnant does not negate her rights as an autonomous adult person.

I think I do to.