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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think FSID shouldn't be promoting the use of dummies?

203 replies

TheDevilWearsPrimark · 21/02/2008 14:06

here

I think the advice is based on very loose research evidence and they are wrong to suggest your child is unsafe if you do not use one.

OP posts:
VictorianSqualor · 21/02/2008 16:32

I think there is evidence that there is a link, they just don't know why exactly.

It's like saying that smoking can increase risk of SIDs, they can't say for definite what will or won't cause a baby to die but they can say, it seems less likely if you do X as it has been seen in research that babies who did die were less likely to eb those that used dummies, didn't smoke, breastfed, back to bed, feet to foot all that stuff.

hazygirl · 21/02/2008 16:37

i too say follow any advice to reduce the risks,

RosJ · 21/02/2008 16:46

I just read squonk's post-I do see what you mean, teh more evidence is collected the more convincing it seems, even with no explanation. However, I still think that small bits of disconnected "evidence" don't always make sense. For example, co-sleeping and breastfeeding seem, in my experience to lead my baby sleeping on its side. Is that more dangerous because he is not on his back? Has anyone considered the two things together?

Also: what is a "link"? There is more heart disease in Scotland apparently- so would it follow that living in Scotland is apparently "linked" with increased heart disease? should we move?

VictorianSqualor · 21/02/2008 16:53

Ros, co-sleeping has allsorts of differences though, one of the reasons co-sleeping is thoguht to be good when done properly is that the mothers breath helps to regulate the babies breathing, plus mum is more aware of babies sleeping and breathing so even whilst asleep will react if the breathing stops which counteracts the sleeping on the back.
See here it explains it much better than I can!

Peachy · 21/02/2008 17:03

I shall be using a dummy with this one, and following all the SIDs advice.

yet every time I go to see the SALT I am confronted with a great big poster declaring the evils of the dummy.

This baby is at high risk of ASD due to genetic factors, but even if he doesn't have that, kids with siblings with it are at increased risk of speech delays- but I would choose to increase that risk IF there is a dummy link rather than increase the risk of SIDs.

It's a basic worse case scenario situation isn't it? I can take the dummy away if needed later on, you can't get your dead baby back .

Surroundedbysnot · 21/02/2008 19:27

I was desperate for dd to take a dummy - but she just wouldn't.

FSID gives other advice, too, which can't always be met in practice - ie, that babies should not nap alone for the first 6m, just as they should not sleep at night in a room alone for the first 6m. But my rambunctious ds woke up dd within minutes if we tried this, and I couldn't send him off to sit in his bedroom while she napped - he was jealous enough as it was.

So I hope NOT using a dummy is not used as a stick to beat mums with. They do their best. And they will be beating themselves up enough about plenty anyway.

Hulababy · 21/02/2008 19:35

Surely this is only suggesting a baby might use a dummy whilst sleeping? Such limited use of a dummy surey makes any negative problems - such as problem teeth - quite unlikely or certinaly les likely. And also only until the age where SIDs is less likely to occr - is it about 2yo or similar? So could be gone.

Surely if it saves just one child it is relevant?

BreeVanDerCampLGJ · 21/02/2008 19:35

MN reaches another all time low.

TDWP had been a new poster, but, well words fucking fail me.

Sycamoretree · 21/02/2008 19:49

Bree - I don't understand your comment (not being aggressive). Have only read the first and last page though - surely just a good debate? Also - don't think it is first time TDWP has posted...

kayzisbroody · 21/02/2008 20:10

What happens if your lo wont have a dummy?
My ds wouldn't take a dummy. We'd tried when he was first born and he would spit it out once he was asleep.

BreeVanDerCampLGJ · 21/02/2008 20:17

I meant to say if TDWP had been a newish poster then I could have understood.

But she is aware of the heart break that GGGG went through when her DD died.

And to then say the following:

By TheDevilWearsPrimark on Thu 21-Feb-08 15:21:58
If the thread upset ggg why not just leave without a post about it.

She obviously wanted me/others to feel sorry for her. Why?

I think I have not done or said anything wrong here and these trends of overreacting and demonising are really annoying me.

Not just this thread, across the board, of course.

MissyTheFlouncer · 21/02/2008 20:19

have to agree there. i'm steering clear of this thread i think

Hulababy · 21/02/2008 20:25

Bree - I agree; that was definitely uncalled for and lacking in any empathy at all. Not on.

littlelapin · 21/02/2008 20:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BreeVanDerCampLGJ · 21/02/2008 20:34

LL

You are probably right, but I saw red.

The lack of empathy on here astounds me some times.

I will leave this thread now, and no TDWP I am not looking for sympathy.

DayOfRest · 21/02/2008 20:47

ok what about the breathing monitor things? has there been any research on stats since they have become more widely used?

i'd be interested to see if they actually make a difference.

RosJ · 21/02/2008 20:47

Personally,as someone who breast feeds to sleep and co-sleeps I find the dummy advice quite difficult to put into practice. I cant see when I would put the dummy in, unless I wasn't feeding him to sleep. (He is 16 months and has never had a dummy, so its not such an urgent issue, but if he was just born I would find this issue very stressful)

So for someone like me who is a big worrier at the best of times, its important for advice to be well thought out,and take all other factors into consideration. I suppose that's why this issue bothers me so much-I don't like the way that snippets of random unconnected advice are given, with "scientific research" and "link" being added to them to make them look irrefutable.

That's why its important to get a range of advice relevant to your own lifestyle, and get the bigger picture (thanks VictorianS for the co-sleeping info-Iread that ages ago then forgot about it).

Peachy · 21/02/2008 20:51

I can see that Ros- but from the toehr side, how would you feel if you found out after losing a child that FSID had this info but had decided not to let in into the public domain in case it worried mothers more? Personally I'd much rather have every snippet of info available to me, so I could make the decisions. By breastfeeding you're utilising other aspects of their advice- if you couldn't BF for whatever reason you might want to redress a perceived balance by using a dummy?

Sycamoretree · 21/02/2008 21:14

Bree - just got chance to read whole thread, and realise my question was incrediby dumb. At risk of inflaming situation, I think it's clear that in certain situations, certain MNetters come online to have a row. They've had a shit day, didn't have the balls to tell the person in RL who pissed them off to fuck off, and jump on the first unsuspecting person who posts their way. There is just no way a person who is not in a bad mood, or spoiling for a fight, could have posted the thinks TDWP posted toward ggg on this thread. I'm agog at the lack of sisterlyness and basic respect for another persons rhubarb. Like the song says, don't rub it.

Sycamoretree · 21/02/2008 21:15

That's THINGS...

3andnomore · 21/02/2008 21:42

Hm...now, I have breastfed succesfully enough (but yes opossibly cut shorter then I wished, to 10 motnh and 13 month ...with my younger 2...) and they used a dummy from the early days...but that is another matter...lucky I suppose...

However, I know the whole bf/co-sleeping (both of which I did) is based on teh "knowledge" that a Baby is less lilely to sleep to deeeply and so is the mum...
I wonder if, possibly, the main dummy users could be Formula/Bottlefeeding parents and that maybe the dummy helps a Baby go to sleep but sleep less deeply and rouse easier...obviously purely specualtion!

However, and this had never been answered and I can't quite work it out if or if not...but originally, after this advice was published, it was said, that it wasn't so much to push the dummy, but not to remove it, if your baby is using a dummy...I am sure that was the original implication.

Also, whilst I do not agree with devils approach here, can I just say, that it is not really that unreasonable to question the advice if it is sponsored by someone who makes a certain product that therefore is marketed that little bit more, and I am sure if this was about a Formula company doing this, there might have been more "support" in the outrage?
I might be wrong of course and missing the point....

RosJ · 21/02/2008 22:01

Yes that's interesting, 3etc-the advice has moved from "don't remove" to "must have".

To clarify-I do think the dummy research should be given and airing and we should all know about it-but it's been sloppily and partially interpreted and reported, that's the issue.

welliemum · 21/02/2008 22:32

I think it's important not to mix up association (A and B occur together) with causation (A causes B).

So as far as I can see (from reading this thread), the dummy advice is based on a fairly strong association, but no-one is quite sure of the causation side of things, is that right?

IMO that's not a reason to discard the advice - because like many on this thread I would do anything reduce the risk of death - but it would make me want to explore a bit more.

I'm wondering, too, about whether the frequent night time feeding/sucking of a breastfed baby is protective in the same way.

I suspect that we (as a society) are going to have to really change the way we think about little babies and sleep.

eg:

  • "sleeping through" as a major parenting goal - can we be sure this isn't putting babies at risk?
  • breastfeeding to sleep - maybe this is a good and protective thing to do (as well as nice and snuggly) - not a sign of weakness and creating a rod for your own back as certain people keep telling us.

It's interesting how research usually comes back to the instinctive way of doing things. Dummy use seems a bit counterintuitive but probably when they work out the mechanism, it'll relate to the fact that our culture has a lot of artificial ideas about how babies should sleep, and maybe suckingon a dummy counteracts that to some extent.

berolina · 21/02/2008 22:37

Spot on, welliemum, I think.

I revisited the Dr Sears stuff about co-sleeping after this thread and looking at how ds2 and I sleep, it all makes quite a lot of sense.

It seems likely to me that a dummy might lower the arousal threashold which is physiologically low in bf-to-sleep/(safe) sleep-sharing situations.

seeker · 21/02/2008 23:08

It seems to me that there are some things that you would need really hard research evidence before doing or not doing - MMR for example -and there are things that are not in themselves harmful that you might not have done that you can do just in case the empirical link is one day proven. Dummies protecting from SIDS for example. Or sweeteners and all sorts of adverse effects. It can't do any harm to use a dummy or avoid sweeteners, so why not do it?