To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

As an ex sex worker I have been assaulted by far more Muslim men than other men-in fact I can only think of one occasion where it wasn't a Muslim who assaulted me. They seem to not respect non-Muslim women at all if I am going from my own experience and in the end I refused to see them.

I am wary of them now. If that makes me bigoted or 'Islamophobic' then fair enough, I am.

I am not against the religion per se as I think a lot of religions have much to answer for. But yes, I am wary of Muslim men. As for the hijab, it may be a choice for some women, but it is a choice based through lack of choice often (pressure from in-laws, wanting to be a 'good' Muslim) etc. It distinguishes a Muslim woman from one who isn't-why? So men know how to treat the woman? Men.

Yes, I am not a fan of it-but then I am not a fan of many religions.

I am going to criticize any societal practice that places expectations on men and women to dress and act differently, whether it be by explicit law or by subtle coercion. I criticize and speak up about this in my own culture and in my own space more than anywhere else. However, I will not ignore sexism when I see it, even if people are trying to use religion as a shield or excuse.

Isn't a phobia an irrational fear? I'd say it's perfectly rational to dislike Islam or any other religion given their track records.

Yep, there weren’t any issues with homosexuality in what is now Pakistan until colonialisation. Homophobia was very much a western concept that was exported, section 377 has a lot to answer for.

There are fairly regular threads on here by Christian's and / or about Christianity and in every single one I've seen those trying to defend the faith are grilled.

You will also see many Christian posters complaining that "Christianity is fair game for ridicule while other religions get off lightly" so you're assumptions are completely wrong.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory and do they grill the OP on IVF and divorce? Or expect them to deal with child marriage in the USA?

Interesting that all the Sikh and Hindi women I know who are older, younger etc all choose not to cover their hair when inside or out and even shock horror wear revealing clothes. They also still practice their religions.

But Islam is changing and becoming more progressive.

Mosques are starting to allow gay people in to pray and many mosques are stopping the segregation of men and women.

Many younger girls are stopping wearing the veil.

I wonder if head dresses are a subtle warning to non Muslims that the woman is out of their dating pool? I guess in a lot of social situations we do find people attractive and as singletons we choose to date people we find attractive on a number of levels. Does the head scarf instantly identify a female as Muslim and therefore non Muslims do not stand a chance (same for males)?

It would be interesting to find the OPs views on marriage between Muslims and non Muslims and if it is allowed how does a non Muslim ask a Muslim out on a date? (I am kind of guessing we are going to be less liberal on this one?)

Women in France are banned from wearing headscarves because it’s a secular society. Therefore if you’re Jewish you’re not allowed to wear a Star of David and presumably a kippah nor a cross if you’re Christian. It has nothing to do with banning headscarves due to oppression of women. (I did a French A level talk on wearing the veil pros and cons and opinions from both sides, it also took into account crosses and other religious symbols which could be worn).

Yes, plenty of Christian sects are homophobic, anti-abortion, etc., and they are roundly criticised for it, including by other Christian sects. I don’t think people are saying Islam is uniquely problematic, just that I should be as permissible to criticise it for the ways in which it is problematic as it is for any other religion.

Such bullshit the Quran says to kill those who have homosexual sex. It's not just a Christianity thing.

Yep I'll say the hindu practice of excluding widowed women from society and making them wear white is awful. Not all Hindus do this but its a thing in some areas , some also used to practice Sati where a widow would be burned on the husbands pyre along with him. The caste system is also incredibly repressive. Hindus don't complain and said hinduphobia when you mention it.

I'll freely admit I'm wary of Muslims. I don't want to be.
There is a large Muslim community who live near my parents, I have to walk through it to get to the centre of town, and I'm regularly abused when I do. I've had kids yanked away from me, men spit at my feet and groups of lads intimidate me off the pavement into the road. This sort of reaction is routine and normal as a bog standard, dressed very boringly, white woman walking through the area (amongst other low level stuff like talking about you with disgust, dirty looks etc).

So, I know in my head, all Muslims are not like this, most are no doubt lovely. But my immediate regular experience leaves me expecting anti social behaviour directed at me personally if I pass them in the street, so I'm wary. I wish it was different. But it's not.

Agree completely. It freaks me out sometimes as in real life I seem to get on well with everyone and then mn makes me think, 'is that what people really think'? Attitudes towards hijab really grate, we are either oppressed or attention seeking, rather than making an informed choice to practise an element of our faith. I had an ama a couple of years ago which resulted in a year long holiday from mn. I always come back eventually though 😂

I just feel that I don't care what anyone else wears in this country, life's too short too care!

It's definitely true the God of Abraham is the God of the Christians, Jews & Muslims, like it or not.. they all believe in the most of the same prophets and angels too.

You could criticise all religions if you really wanted to, but do remember that in the case of Judaism, being Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion.

Personally I think if someone is living a good life it doesn't matter what religion if any they follow. As long as they are a decent person.

I recently lost a good friend in a car crash who was a Muslim. She didn't wear a hijab as her family weren't traditional. But her husband was more religious and had just taken their child to the Mosque for the first time. They were a lovely couple, I miss her.

Yes, religious poster's are quizzed on all sorts of topics especially those that tend to show their hypocrisy.

As I said, one of the chief complaints of the religious on these forums is that their particular faith receives more critisism than any other, but the actual reality is that all faiths are fairly robustly challenged on here.

@PimpMyFridge

Sorry for your experience.

I think it may help too have honest discussions about how Muslim men view western women especially in a school environment. If it is the case that Muslim boys are being raised in a no sex before marriage environment where Muslim women are jealous of their modesty in terms of clothing then in reality what do the boys feel when they are going women in what may be considered revealing clothing?

I would imagine there would be a great deal of confusion in that the boys/men may find the western women attractive yet their culture is geared towards forbidding that attraction. Is there therefore a disdain amongst some for Western women (and associated culture)? Are western women viewed as available for short term relationships prior to a long term relationships with a muslim? How do Muslim boys interact with more western girls at school?

I think there are questions to be discussed but the debate is difficult to be held in a sensitive manner.

No that’s absolute shit sorry. But it is used against Muslim and Jewish minorities. Islamaphobia and anti Jewish sentiment are rife in France. The bible is taught as a text in schools and leaders frequently say Christian values are the backbone of French civilisation. Aggressively secularism is not weaponised against Christians like it is Jews and Muslims

Because a) one is disagree and the other is I don’t know if being gay is actually a sin or not, I know that the accepted doctrine is that it is but I don’t know if that’s what God truly ‘thinks’.

but for argument let’s say that I did disagree with colleagues on being gay, if I actively vocalised this and ‘criticised’ them for their lifestyle then yes that would be discrimination

Sadly, @Lesschubtolove, I think negative perceptions and intolerance of Islam and other faiths is pretty ingrained in society. Some people are consciously prejudiced and have no problems being verbally or physically aggressive about it, but most of the time the difficulties I encounter seem primarily to stem from fear or misunderstanding.

I'm Muslim, I wear hijab. I also drink lots of coffee, go shopping, take DC to soft play, work, and do hundreds of other things that are just like lots of other people. My faith is one aspect of my life, just like some of my friends have their own faiths which are part of theirs. But where my Christian and atheist friends have different experiences is that they don't tend to be expected to justify and defend their faith on a regular basis, while being challenged and 'confronted' about faith seems to be a more common experience among my Muslim and Jewish friends.

I'm not a scholar, I'm not an expert in Islam or any other religion; what I am is just another woman trying to keep all the plates of life spinning. My faith helps me navigate this life. I'm not looking to shove it down anyone's throat, or to be an example through which people can pick holes in it. Different people have different ways of making sense of their lives and the universe, and that's ok, we shouldn't hate or fear each other.

Actually I've met lots of Muslim men who are having sex with non Muslim women, sometimes with disastrous results. Unplanned pregnancy, man decides child will live with him because he wants child to be Muslim, harassment of the mother, abusing women who aren't covered up enough for them, woman goes into Refuge, man finds her ( often by getting taxi drivers to look for her). When I say this I am told I am talking rubbish, but all of this has been verified by me due to my work, and with evidence from the police. Sorry, but I see a completely different attitude when it comes to how men and women behave and how some Muslim men act towards fellow Muslims and non Muslims. You may have different experiences, that's fine, but mine are equally valid. I could give lots of examples, all true.

@mids2019 thanks. I agree that culture clash between a ministry culture in a host country is a tricky thing to get right. So that conversation would be really valuable.
Teaching your child one thing (modesty) is important while simultaneously that another community may not believe so but that doesn't make them trash, is an interesting parental dilemma I'm sure.

But I don't think the Muslim community want to have the discussion generally speaking. I think they want to protect their own culture and beliefs (understandably) and the only way to do that while being a minority culture in a more permissive society is to 'other' the alternative to make it harder for their children to cross the line.

My friend lives in a house in this area I mentioned, she is the only white person there. She was harassed for years to leave, threatened, bullied, cajoled, bothered... They stopped short of putting bricks through her window thankfully. She is very stubborn (and couldn't afford to move) so stuck it out and eventually they gave up, but they don't want to integrate or belong, they like being separate and actively avoid nuanced conversations about how the two communities can get along better.

I'm speaking about the local community I know specifically. It might be different in other areas.