To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

but then we can’t win can we, any change is deemed not enough. It is something at least, and there is work to be done lots and lots of work, but it is a big deal (in the Muslim world) to have an openly gay imam.

@Cuckoosheep I think the link I am trying to make is between the attitude of Christianity towards female sexuality and fashion. High heels, for instance. Nobody can run in them and they are notoriously uncomfortable. So they perform the double action of punishing the woman for her sexuality and rendering her passive to men. I am sure there must be some quotes in the Bible that suggest this is how a woman should be! I won't go on, I suppose I just see these fashions as something growing out of Christianity because they were so popular in mainly Christian cultures. Things are changing, however.

But you can't seriously claim that the religion that you chose to follow isn't - as a whole - homophobic?

There is quite rampant homophobia amongst Muslims coming from the top down (Ie leadership) like other (not all) faiths but there are small pockets of change and acceptance is becoming more mainstream, admittedly we have a long way to go in this regard

I do think an openly gay Iman is a big deal

@8state From what I understand about Christianity it was similar to Islam headscarves/ hats in church or when out, covering shoulders and breasts etc not too long ago. I'm not sure Christianity can take responsibility for high heels. Western culture probably but I think (could be very wrong and welcome correction) that churches would have been against mini skirts, heels etc when they first came out. I can see where you're coming from but is your view then not similar to how Muslim countries may be seen by some Westerners? I have to say that the difference would be choice. In the Western culture you can choose heels, mini skirts, make up or head scarf in some Muslim countries you have to wear a head scarf.

Really got to go out now, sorry ill try to pop on later.

we assume Muslim countries have terrible human rights records...

I think our media gives quite a biased opinion, so we assume non-Muslim countries have terrible human rights records, and that other countries are fine. The US, for instance, allows people to die because they can't afford healthcare. Guantanamo was pretty bad. China is mostly secular, but they persecute the Uighurs, Columbia has serious human rights violations, even though it's mostly Christian. Russia is mostly Christian, but probably not pristsine on human rights. Probably lots of others to mention.

If I hear 'X country has a bad record on women's rights' I don't assume that means every other country is OK.
There is no perfect country, but then human rights are a fairly new invention, and change takes time.

is between the attitude of Christianity towards female sexuality and fashion. High heels, for instance. Nobody can run in them and they are notoriously uncomfortable. So they perform the double action of punishing the woman for her sexuality and rendering her passive to men. I am sure there must be some quotes in the Bible that suggest this is how a and so on.
What a load of nonsense. Blaming Christianity for fashion!
And, whatever you think about non-Islamic countries, at least they don't throw gay people off the roofs of blocks of flats

@Sausagenbacon I think there is a connection between the dominant religion of a country and 'fashion'. Christianity holds Eve responsible for the fall - so there's your shame and punishment bit. It also used to instruct women to obey husbands and fathers, so there's your passive obedience bit. These combine to form a mentality that dictates clothing choices. But it would take a thesis to argue this properly, and you don't sound as if you'd want to read it. All the best.

I wouldn't want to read it because it's tenuous (to be kind) nonsense. You clearly have no understanding of modern-day Christianity.

@Sausagenbacon I was brought up RC, but admit I have lapsed. The scale of abuse by the monks at my friend's school sort of informed that decision. But I am not talking about modern day Christianity, but about its historical influence on the culture of countries where it dominated. I don't want to offend you, and have to go out now.

Any change is good so that’s positive. But you’ve admitted that it’s not as much as other religions so perhaps they are a little behind (sorry).

Thanks for being an ally and your contributions @8state

I don’t think it’s the simple though.

we have to look at the religions institutions that have made progress on lgbt rights, they are predominantly in western development nations (there still is some considerable backlash too, case America )which is where the progress islamically is being made. but if we look to developing countries or 3rd world nations it’s not really the case, in fact the opposite, same with the likes of Russia.

most of the Muslim world is developing nations or new nations founded after the fall of the Ottoman Empire (and underpinned by wahabism). This is why I’ve mentioned the Ottoman Empire before and how they decriminalised homosexuality before the west did, which meant that homosexuality was decriminalised across a good chunk of the Muslim world. Formation of Saudi and they’re claiming the heart of the Muslim faith (Mecca and medina) and colonialism have knocked back the progress made by at least a hundred years.

But once again, you are ignoring the part that Islam has played in changing parts of the world for the worse in recent history. The increasing religiosity in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran has gone counter to the general world pattern of increased human rights, better access to healthcare and education for girls and women, and more tolerant societies.

How do you reconcile that with your assertion Islam is progressing, but it’s just a few years behind Christian countries? In my lifetime the countries listed above have become worse places to be born female.

There are a few places where ultra conservative Christians are trying to drag women back into the dark ages (Roe v Wade, some parts of Eastern Europe) but they are outliers and even they don’t seek to remove education and access to work/money from half their population.

Also, France decriminalised it before the Ottomans. It was still illegal in public, but permitted in private. The rulers also kept a big old harem of essentially enslaved boys for their pleasure, so not exactly the gay utopia you are suggesting.

@Cuckoosheep the way you have been treated, appears to be minimised, on here. From what I've read, you were the victim of racist attacks.

@8state

The US has a healthcare system that does have disparities and even in the UK there may be isolated deaths linked to poverty or excessive waits for NHS treatment. I would still prefer to live in a western democracy than an authoritarian theocracy but maybe that's just me 😕

Guantanamo Bay was of course set up in response to the most heinous terrorist attack in history. The extra judicial nature of the camp is a concern but I have no doubt there are some extremely dangerous individuals there and we are safer because if their incarceration.

Both Russia and China are authoritarian in governance along with the Gulf States and Afghanistan. We mustn't forget many soldiers died to attempt to preserve democracy in Afghanistan to help ensure our safety.

I’ve not said it was pride every day but change was made.

ive not ignored anything I literally said the formation of Saudi and that mentality it solidified has knocked all the progress in the Muslim world back by at least 100 years- likely more.

Afghanistan hasn’t happened in a vacuum. There were decent moves forward for women in the 1970s but that changed when Russia invaded and the Taliban took over

which Christian countries? You mean the west right? Not Russia? Not CAR? Do you mean are developing nations just a few years behind the west in terms of social progress? Obviously not but that’s not a comparison of like with like. Are the more developed Muslim countries on par with Christian west secular western countries? Also no, those more developed countries like uae and qatar as theocratic countries that have under currents of wahabism. A more accurate comparison would be where to the Muslim council of Great Britain sit on core issues compared to the church or England

@Lesschubtolove

There is acceptance that some Islamic regimes are less than desirable and Islam in the UK on the whole is more moderate and with each passing generation will become more like Christianity in that it fits in with the democratic secular norms of the population.

Do you agree that increasing progressive values in all religions is a good thing?

As we're the non white Muslims, who murdered Lee Rigby, apparently.

Were they portrayed as mentally ill? I don’t recall. They rightly were jailed for the rest of their lives, iirc.

Yes, they were.