To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

on the whole of course, I don’t think ‘progressive values’ though should be transformed into a beating stick to make Muslims give up somethings they hold dear, like fasting, prayers, the big congregational prayers, for some women modest dress and the scarf or using them to make Muslims say celebrate non Islamic holidays.

but as I see progressive values as dialogue, specifically inter faith dialogue, tolerance, acceptance, sexually equality, freedoms of speech etc

I used to consider myself a feminist but after hearing so much that my hijab stemmed from misogyny I stopped. For me it's the opposite! I got so sick of dressing to please society. I felt like my Instagram was full of women dressing for the eyes of men/competing with other women and I was doing the same. Slowly I transitioned into being more natural and then completely stripped back to wearing a hijab and no makeup. I felt so liberated. I was no longer dressing up for society but for myself.

@M4J4 one of them was diagnosed with a major mental illness. They weren't portrayed as something they weren't, in that respect, it was a medical diagnosis.

In relation to feminism, I think there's room around the table for lots of different groups, and that it's important to hear different perspectives and listen to what feminism means and represents for different people and groups.

Some people see the hijab as not consistent with feminism, some people see skin-tight outfits the same way. There's room for people who like both, to share their views, and work together as women. If we want this to be a diverse society, we need to listen to diverse voices and not impose our own definitions.

But it's not just the hijab, is it?
It's a whole system of seeing women as less capable than men. Presented here as being 'protective' of women when what that boils down to is believing that women are lesser than men.
So, yes, I call out misogyny when I see it.

I agree in that everyone who has reasonable views (not extremists of any type) should be included but we shouldn't change meanings in order o be inclusive. A system which doesn't allow equality between sees and sexuality is misogynistic and homophobic. To change our definitions of those terms to allow Islam to be seen as being inclusive of those groups when it isn't, isn't allowing equal chairs at the table and may cause more resentment if views that are against misogyny and homophobia are labelled as islaophobic as it would seem to be done to stop the challenge.

I did also look at some opposing views on the report I posted earlier at your suggestion. There was a report again under the government which reading between the lines looked at dealing with social cohesion rather than isolating/ pinpointing threat. I'll try to find it to post for balance. Read side by side they seem like different means of reaching a similar objective (my take).

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-needs-to-better-understand-faith-independent-review-claims

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-of-prevents-report-and-government-response

The Government response to the prevent report is worth a read too.

That’s very true and if you look at how many of these countries were treated by white imperialists you can see why homophobia is so common (Tom Daley actually did a documentary on it). However it doesn’t really excuse why the UK isn’t a bit more progressive. Saying that, I know some are and hopefully it’ll move in the right direction.

I think any sort of progress now with Muslim leadership (Even in the west) will be slow due to the nexus of Islam (Mecca and medina) being in Saudi, Saudi has sponsored the building of so many mosques across the world to spread their ideology, being trained in Saudi is held up as a badge of honour, progress against that will be slooooowwwww

I will never understand how people can't separate the religion from its adherents.

I guess you don’t have to though 🤷‍♀️there’s many things in this life I’ll never understand; tattoos, body modification, wanting to go to space ( I mean have they not seen gravity?!) but or those people who volunteered to go to mars or cage diving with sharks but that’s ok, different things make sense (and matter) to different people

^ ignore the typos

I don’t think I asked for your anyone’s opinions on converts to any religion.

my Aibu was that there is a lot of misunderstandings about Islam and a lot of prejudice too, as can be seen on the thread. One of the things that I and many others find especially frustrating is when we explain why we do certain things (ie wear the scarf) and how we (not people in theocratic dictatorships) have chosen to do it and we are told we are wrong. Or when Islam is portrayed as a religion of violence, we correct that with facts and again told we are wrong because a handful of nutters committed some heinous acts.

The point is that people DO actively harbour ill will towards Muslims and prejudice against them because it’s what they heard from so and so, or they hate Islam because a Pakistani called them a gori. So yes, I will correct those assumptions because not only are they incorrect they are harmful

You are in denial OP. "A few nutters" you say.
Millions of Muslims agreed that Salman Rushdie should be murdered. That was why he was given the level of protection that he had. Until recently that is when it was relaxed and he was nearly killed.
Millions of Muslims supported the Taliban to take over Afghanistan, where they punish all women by denying them education and jobs.

You're being selectful in your reasoning and detailing everything that has been said and especially in my case.

Yes I did detail that I was racially abused by muslims ofcourse that impacts how I view Islam, I also detailed that I am from an area close to Rochdale/ Oldham and have heard this many times and am fully aware that it wasn't used in jest in the same way the shortened version of Pakistani is usually used as an insult. I said that the grooming gang in Rochdale was allowed to get away with what they did for so long because agencies were scared of being labelled islamophobic, I also said I've read much on social media aimed and about the girls and Lee Rigby's mum who is also local to the area. I detailed that I'm ex cabin crew and had the impact of Islamist terrorist attacks impact my daily working life. All of these contribute to my view of Islam, alongside my values about equality.

In regards to Islam and violence if you read the reports and the response from the government you will see:-

"The threat from terrorism is becoming more diverse, but Islamist terrorism remains our primary and deadliest threat. The Islamist attacks in recent years – including at Fishmongers’ Hall, Streatham, Forbury Gardens in Reading, and the horrific murder of Sir David Amess in 2021 – provide stark reminders of the enduring threat posed by those inspired to violence by Islamist ideologies. Yet Islamist terrorism is severely under- represented in Prevent. The Review finds that there has been an institutional hesitancy to deal with Islamist extremism and a reticence in challenging those who claim that our efforts to tackle it are Islamophobic." (THe government, 02/23).

OP, I've also pointed out numerous times that what people are against eg scarfs, may not be coming from a place of islamophobia but a different view point eg feminism and those values/ ideologies/ whatever clash, this isn't Islamophobia and not every critical comment should be labelled such.

And I’ve said I don’t think that you can call yourself (or one can call oneself) a feminist and actively silence other people’s experiences.

Well firstly there is the issue of can white people actually be victims of racism in the first place. regardless what’s clear is that gori was said to you in a derogatory manner and it’s not ok. But it’s not an adequate reason to not like Islam. There other reasons for me are more understandable, especially given your line of work.

what for me is quite frustrating is that I, others on this thread, and countless Muslim organisations globally all decry terrorism and say this isn’t from us, this is an act of evil that goes against Islam yet the terrorists have been so good at convincing non Muslims globallly that violence is intrinsic to Islam

Millions of Muslims support the Taliban? I guess that’s why when they took over Afghanistan the Afghani people were fleeing , because they all supported the Taliban?

and when they did seize Afghanistan and people for whatever reason weren’t able to leave; do you think that they tolerate dissent? No you pledge your allegiance or you and your family and everyone you love dies.

How did they agree and support these things? Was there a referendum? Why wasn't I sent a polling card? 😩

Op, i don't and wouldn't want to silence others but you cannot change what it means to be a feminist to support a misogynistic religion in order to be inclusive of women in that religion or for those women to be able to call themselves a feminist while buying into the misogyny.

Our own Government details the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremists. In recent times these have included home grown terrorists who are recruited (not sure if that's thr right word) here in our country. Ofcourse there are Muslims in the UK and all over the world who believe this way. While yes it shouldn't be down to individuals to take responsibility or condemn, bring silent also causes harm, not reporting, mosques allowing imams to preach who hold these views etc

Your first post was calling critism of Islam all Islamophobic, it isn't. The criticisms made are a valid thought path and not only made because of islamophobia.

But you are dismissing what I and the other sisters on this thread who wear the scarf have said, even if you think it represents misogyny (I don’t ageee with you but let’s agree to disagree here) can’t you see that some women are actively reclaiming it? Taking it back and styling it in their own way as an FU in someways to those who claim they can define a Muslim woman on her behalf.

it’s the same thing that’s been done with the term queer. You might think oh hey I can’t see that logic at all, and that’s ok but to call yourself a feminist you have to listen to those voices or your rendering Muslim women to have a practically subaltern status