To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

But that’s the issue with western and white feminism, feminism needs intersectionality. What about Muslim feminists? Do their voices not count? Feminism surely is about empowering women and respecting diversity and imploring choice whilst acknowledging our choices may be different.

This is what I'm getting at though, it isn't that their views don't count its that they're different and conflicting. The counter is shy should western feminists views be altered to include a view which is counter to what they stand for. Similar to including trans women in the women debate (the view of why should the word woman be redefined to include men/ trans women). To be a feminist is to promote female agency and go against misogyny, you can't include a misogynistic view because it comes from a woman. Yes I think women can buy into misogyny.

Thank you to you and @Florissante for the information on the niqab. I must have missed that part of the thread previously.

@Cuckoosheep it's worth reading the review you posted but also some of the criticism of it. There were significant concerns from a number of groups about the appointment of someone known to have pre-existing quite strong bias, the review lead was not starting from a position of neutrality.

I’m referring to the mainstream consensus, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox (Russia for one has some very anti gay rules), CoE. I’m saying the mainstream of Islam at this moment in time is similar to those aforementioned groups.

there are a handful of gay mosques, one in Chicago, South Africa and Paris. There may be more that I’m unaware of, but from little things big things grow

@Cuckoosheep I really don't think it's at all like the debate re: including men/trans women in feminism. Muslim women are our biological sisters, sharing the same roots of oppression. And we will never hear their voices if we shout them down.

@Scirocco I will do, I was looking for stats and found this. Thank you for your reply too, I hadn't seen it when I posted.

Thank you @8state , your words are much appreciated.

Sp you're picking and choosing churches that don't allow same sex marriage in order to justify Islam not allowing it.

In what way is the Church of Scotland not mainstream?

You won't get my comparison, will you - within Christianity there are long established denominations that have made conscious decisions to allow their clergy to conduct gay marriage. It's not like someone's house church or tiny group that have decided it. I think your answer to "are there any groups in Islam that support gay marriage" is no, with the exception of a few individual mosques.
I think it's very unlikely the Catholic Church will change on this in my lifetime, but I suspect the C of E will given other changes they have made in the past 50 years.

@Scirocco Thank you. I haven't said much but I have read the thread quite carefully!

Sorry, "accept" not "get"

John Knox is turning in his grave

its not justifying rather that Islam isn’t alone I’m not performing gay marriage but those mosques I mentioned do represent grass roots change

@8state, i don't mean for their views to be shouted down, but I do think that in some cases it isn't Islamophobia but another reason behind not liking aspects of Islam such as wearing a scarf because of where the custom has come from ie a place of misogyny. I was referring to the OP's original post and asking views on how opposing views can be balanced in such cases. Both equally valid but contrary.

But way to dismiss progressive change being made in Islam though

ROFL. You've just dismissed the changes in several significant Protestant denominations as "not mainstream".

You're the one who keeps comparing Islam to Christianity. You can't continually do that and then moan when people point out that many Christian denominations are miles ahead in terms of progress.

Right, grassroots. Still progress, but the CofS is a mainstream church despite your insistence otherwise.

He probably turns in his grave any time a woman dares to speak tbh.

Fair point!

@Cuckoosheep Well, I expect the reason I can't go topless in the heat is because of misogyny. My breasts are for feeding children, but hey best hide them away or the men can't be held responsible. I hate high heels, make up, bras, waxing, but I've conformed to some of them to avoid misogynistic disapproval. Does that mean I should hate Christianity, since these norms arose out of a predominantly Christian country? These things are not so different to corsets, containing and fetishising sexuality, but they bloomed out of a Christian culture. Doesn't make me hate Christianity, or those who follow it though.

No, I’ve said they aren’t representative of the mainstream, but that was phrased poorly it makes them seem like they are fringe movements, I should’ve said the majority consensus.

it’s great that some branches of Christianity are becoming more inclusive. Hopefully we’ll see more of this from all the world faiths

I think one challenge of Islam is that when we look at countries with Islamic governance or Muslim majorities there is institutional misogyny and other human rights abuses.

As we have a western liberal democracy are Muslims becoming more progressive to integrate into prevailing culture out of a natural desire or is the progression done under suffrance really and do some feel that with a greater number progression would be dealt with in a more authoritarian fashion.

The UK is well beyond any religious authoritarianism and any hint of its return even in pockets I think is met with suspicion.

Would examples of empowered powerful Muslim women help? There are obviously some in the UK and I wonder if these examples would lend weight to combatting any misogyny that exists?

I don’t think you can call 3 outlying mosques “progressive change”

@8state I've no idea where they developed but yes I think they are likely born out of misogyny most are but i can't think of any reason for a woman to be forced to wear them other than abuse. I'm not keen on any religion and can point out a few things about Christianty too but the thread is about Islam. Do I wear make up? .... yes but I think make up came about to hide poor hygiene (I don't think I have poor hygiene but do like a bit of concealer and mascara), I don't wear mini skirts (not sure of their history but I think it was something to do with the 60's and representative of the sex revolution/ free love/ pill?) And heals again not too sure what there history is but love them, wish I could wear them. Going top less, I agree this law is sexist, I personally wouldn't unless I have them pulled up. Their link to Christianity isn't as clear cut though as the head scarf on a Muslim woman.

I read or my understanding from up thread was that some women choose to wear it to 'reclaim it' (still representative of misogyny) and other women don't have a choice. With it coming from Muhammad's wives?

I'm off out this evening with my son so if I don't reply straight away I may do later.

@mids2019 I think our media gives quite a biased opinion, so we assume non-Muslim countries have terrible human rights records, and that other countries are fine. The US, for instance, allows people to die because they can't afford healthcare. Guantanamo was pretty bad. China is mostly secular, but they persecute the Uighurs, Columbia has serious human rights violations, even though it's mostly Christian. Russia is mostly Christian, but probably not pristsine on human rights. Probably lots of others to mention.