To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

You seem to struggle reading

you asked for MY opinion. I’ve given it, it is an opinion shared by some scholars too but at present not the majority.

@lysozyme

My view on things like the inheritance guidance is that these were minimum standards, introduced at a time when they themselves were pretty radical in what they were saying. Women inheriting at all was not the norm, and to be given actual minimum amounts that had to be left to women and girls at all was a huge step forward for protecting women.

It was like saying to a man who might otherwise have left his female relatives nothing, that if he didn't meet these minimum standards, he was going to have to account for why he hadn't done something so clearly stated. Some men might not have cared about what happened to their female relatives, but they probably cared what their mates thought about them and what might happen if they had to explain why they hadn't done it.

The actual amounts, a lot of people don't think are applicable in our society today. There's the theory, the minimum standards of behaviour, and then the application in the world and society in which we live. But even in the most misogynistic societies, even if they follow the most literal interpretations, those minimum standards are there and there'll be some societal pressure to adhere to at least those.

I can read just fine thanks.

So the majority hold sexist views but Islam according to you isn't sexist.

So why not set the minimum standard to equal inheritance rather than half?

In relation to financial set-ups for families, I think most people just do what works for them in their circumstances. Again, there are minimum standards. Are they applicable in our society today? I guess people need to make their own decisions about that.

I work, DH works, we balance our finances between us. I'm not dependent upon him and he's not dependent upon me. Things like the mehr are more symbolic than anything for a lot of people, like engagement rings and similar tokens are.

He says that the Quran speaks of when two people commit sexual immortality (aka sex outside of marriage or sexual crimes against others such as rape, necrophilia, beastiality ) he emphasises that this could mean two men or a man and a woman that they should be punished, but the punishment isn’t stated.

he also speaks of the need to have inclusive spaces for all regardless of their sexual orientation and gender identity

he doesn’t sanction gay Islamic marriages you are right, as Islam like other world religions does hold marriage to be between a man and a woman. I’ve been to a debate where he was present and he does support gay state marriage as that is separated from religion

You forgot to mention that if a woman accuses a man of rape, she needs four witnesses to attest to the act. If not, she is guilty of adultery and can be punished accordingly.

Yes, that sounds deeply homophobic to me. Gay people should be celibate or marry the opposite sex, if they ever enter into a relationship with someone of the same sex they should receive some unspecified punishment.

Is that for the children of the deceased? I don't know the 100% guaranteed accurate answer to that, I'm not an expert in Islamic jurisprudence. I would imagine that it had something to do with the following:

• Incremental changes were a common feature in Islamic societal changes. At a time when people actually had to be told "Don't bury baby girls alive", I'd imagine that the people who really needed to have the clear minimum standards laid out in order to get them to leave anything at all to female relatives were also the kind of people who wouldn't have even grudgingly accepted full-blown equal rights at that time. I'd hope that most people in the UK at least would now be able to cope with the idea of treating their children equally. However, a previous poster gave an example of how even with those minimum standards that people somehow managed to accept centuries ago, there are people today who aren't even doing that.

• Family dynamics at that time in that part of the world may have placed a greater financial burden on a male child, meaning that equitable support for the whole family unit, in the context in which those minimum standards were being specified, might have been better protected through that distribution. A lot of the very specific things stated are considered by a lot of people to be highly context-specific. The basis for something could be specific to what was happening in a particular area at a particular time, which scholars can then consider and interpret in different contexts.

We shouldn't just take something from one verse or one statement somewhere and say, "Well, that's how it is for all time". Things need to be understood in the context in which they occurred, and then interpreted into the situations we're in today. But inheritance isn't an area I know much about as it's not something I've encountered much.

i think it is homophobic yes, and it’s the stance of most world religions. Hopefully change will be made in those areas across the board

Yeah that’s fucking awful. And pure misogyny and due to the placing of rape in the same category as adultery where as it should be placed in the same category at any violent crime against an individual. There is work to be done on this in the Muslim world

Maybe in America lone white men but not here as there's very limited access to guns. I agree incel culture has hit some white men hard its to do with losing privilege and having to be reasonable human beings to find a mate. Incels would rather kill than work hard on themselves.

Thanks Sunshine, I didn’t actually mean it, I was holding up a mirror to @botanicalart by quoting their exact words but substituting the words ‘Muslim’.

To me it seems much of the discussion is around opposing beliefs or a clash of beliefs. It has been said that wearing the hijab is a choice rather than a forced representation of a religious belief (UK) although it's origins are based in Islam? If that Is correct (my apologies if not which is why I'm asking) it seems some people are opposed to it because of the misogynistic views represented regardless of if that is how the wearer sees it. Feminists have their own beliefs and women are a group facing discrimination in their own right. In our society that is free for people to question and to critise how would you suggest opposing views are managed? Are religious views prioritised over other views? Muslim women should be able to wear a scarf but do you think they should accept the feminist view that it isn't liked (to bring back to the OP) this isn't strictly Islamaphobic it's feminist. Would you be able to see it and accept that or is anything that challenges the views of a Muslim Islamophobic? Clearly there is some clash of views/ culture how would you like to see these resolved in UK society? This could apply to gay people also as that has been discussed at length too.

I hope that makes some sense.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any stats on crime in the UK rather than the US? Where a religion, any religion/ belief is used to justify acts I can see how the religion can be seen as the cause. I dislike incels, white supremacy etc also. Do you think that the big headline grabbing attacks of recent years cause less damage/ upset/ grief etc than the smaller daily acts of bias faced? I don't agree with either but know I probably do make judgements that I shouldn't based on a number of things not just religion (I try not too but can't help it, being honest, I think many people judge others on some level).

There was a brief discussion about the burka where it was described as blue earlier, in the last hour I saw a woman with a black veil/ full face covering and head covering (there was a gap so she could see) and pink dress. Is this not a burka then? If so what is it please? This is a genuine question.

But that’s the issue with western and white feminism, feminism needs intersectionality. What about Muslim feminists? Do their voices not count? Feminism surely is about empowering women and respecting diversity and imploring choice whilst acknowledging our choices may be different.

the black face covering is the niqab. I’ve mentioned the debate around covering the face upthread

It has been said that wearing the hijab is a choice rather than a forced representation of a religious belief (UK) although it's origins are based in Islam?

In the west it is, yes. But it's certainly not in places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

The origins of veiling are Persian and pre-date Islam. Veiling was considered a luxury (it meant that women did not have to go out and farm or look after livestock) and was started by Mohammed's wives in the Arabian peninsula. And to be pedantic, there is no requirement to 'veil'. Women were enjoined to cover their 'breast'. Not breasts - breast. This has been interpreted as a requirement to cover their hair / faces (depending on the region).

That first line should have been in bold.

The hostility displayed here is shocking. I fail to see the feminism in attacking women for their clothing choices, Let Muslim women discuss this and make changes as they desire, they do not need white saviours telling them what to wear. I am aware that there are white Muslims, too, but I think the predominant belief is that Muslim = brown. I believe this is the reason for the hostility, it's basically racism. Just as the early Chinese immigrants were described as the 'yellow peril' and accused of all sorts of immorality. I'm sure there's much to criticise in any religious teachings, but the vitriol is reserved for the assumed 'brown' Muslims.

I am in Scotland so know most about those churches but the Church of Scotland and the Methodist church (Quakers too I think) definitely can conduct same sex marriages.

I found this which may be relevant.

Struggling to post link but it's the prevent review by William Shaw Cross.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-of-prevents-report-and-government-response

It’s actually no longer required In saudi just the abaya is, minor point as cultural norms still stand. But both things can be true at the same time

women wear mini skirts out of choice and there are women who are forced into mini skirts to perform sex work… is the mini skirt the problem or is it the act of forcing someone to do something against Their will.

the breast / breasts distinction is interesting. I’ve definitely heard speakers refer to to breasts citing that the custom of the time was to have the veil on the head but thrown behind the shoulders leaving the busom exposed.

ive seen translations as busom, breast and private parts but as a non Arabic speaker I can’t comment on the accuracy or any translation

And that’s great but it’s not the majority view is it

The Kirk is the biggest church in Scotland. And while maybe most churches worldwide don't it's a growing number.

How many mosques conduct same sex marriages?

Sorry but you'd said that Islam "like other world religions" opposed gay marriage so I was pointing out another view. It might not be the majority view of churches in England but the Church of Scotland are the biggest denomination in Scotland.
Are there similar groups/sects/denominations within Islam that support gay marriage?

Yes, I absolutely get why there can be different views of people about the hijab. It's a challenging topic, which is linked with deeply personal decisions and struggles, faith, inclusivity, women's rights...

I think people have to be able to disagree and debate and consider each other's perspectives. There are proud British traditions of passionate disagreement to uphold, after all.

There's a huge difference between disagreement and discrimination. I will defend people's rights to disagree with me and to make different choices. That's not Islamophobia, in my opinion, so long as people can have mutual respect.

Discrimination is different, and can occur on many levels. I think the best way to challenge discrimination can often be to improve cross-community interactions and representation of different groups, so we can challenge stereotypes and see others as people like us.

I need to go collect my DC now but if I get the chance I'll pop back later.

The woman you saw may have been wearing a niqab?