To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

That's not actually true. They just get the most publicity.

According to this US Congress proposed bill the biggest threat are white supremacists and far right extremists. This is for the US but I assume it wouldn't be that different for the UK.

https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s894/BILLS-116s894is.xml

From the link:

"F]atalities resulting from attacks by far right wing violent extremists have exceeded those caused by radical Islamist violent extremists in 10 of the 15 years, and were the same in 3 of the years since September 12, 2001. Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent).”

Also, interestingly:

"hate crimes increased by 6 percent that year. Much of the 2015 increase came from a 66-percent rise in attacks on American Muslims and a 9-percent rise in attacks on American Jews. In all three reports, race-based crimes were most numerous, and those crimes most often targeted African Americans."

Read the whole article..it's quite interesting.

That’s a ridiculous straw man argument that I will not engage with. You don’t seem capable of understanding my point.

This is the third time you have refused to engage on the matter of white terrorists. You seem unable to confront this reality.

It is interesting, but it is data from 1 country out of 195.

The deadliest terrorist groups in the world in 2022 were Islamic State (IS) and its affiliates, followed by al-Shabaab, Balochistan Liberation Army (BLA) and Jamaat Nusrat Al-Islam wal Muslimeen (JNIM).

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/global-terrorism-index-2023

@Scirocco I certainly wouldn't argue that you don't experience discrimination and I'm wholly against that.

But the OP of this thread pertained to be about misconceptions, and women's dress was mentioned as one of those things they were surprised people thought negatively of/presumably misconstrued. I wouldn't insist any Muslim woman talking about the discrimination they face to come up with an academic defence of why the culture around dress is not misogynistic, however I do think it was appropriate within the context of this thread. Op says people have negative misconceptions about the burqa etc, I'm saying, well nobody ever really provides an explanation as to why that one is a misconception, and it really doesn't come across like there is one.

There is a time and a place, of course, but I do think all belief systems need to be scrutinised in terms of whether their values are positive or harmful. I don't believe any religion should be exempt from that.

As I have said before I dislike all religions, in particular those that place emphasis on faith as opposed to scepticism. In that way I think whatever Islam or Christianity says or how different people interpret their holy texts doesn't really matter. What matters is that faith teaches people to blindly accept things because a higher authority says so and it teaches them that to be sceptical and critical is sinful. This can be used for both good and bad purposes but my point is that it can be used and abused. In that way I think moderate Muslims and Christians (and other religions that place a lot of emphasis on faith) provide the platform needed for extremism or terrorism to breed. So I don't think it helps blaming individual religions or its "moderate" adherents. The problem is faith.

Actually, what I'm trying to explain is that lots of people don't support my right or other people's rights to live as I am. That ranges from discrimination in the street or online, through to actual threats against my life.

We're absolutely entitled to disagree and debate different points but when someone says they experience hate and discrimination on a regular basis and suggests it might be nice if we could have a think about how that could be tackled, it doesn't feel that supportive for the loudest responses received to be calls for explanations and apologies for different things".

I'm not refusing to engage with people, I'm busy and don't see every post and don't have time to answer everything anyway (also it's not my thread, so while I'm popping in to share my thoughts on some things, I'm not wanting to speak over the OP, who may wish to share her own views). If someone has a specific thing they want to ask me, and I've missed it, I'm happy to be directed to that and if I get time I'll do my best.

I can talk about my personal experience and to a lesser extent the experiences of my friends, because that's my lived experience. I can't talk about the lived experiences of people I don't know. Those are their experiences.

Some of the topics that are being raised, are things outwith my knowledge and experience. Scholars have spent decades analysing and considering the historical, theological and sociological debates and controversies surrounding issues such as inheritance laws, marriage, death, hijab, that actually it's not ok to beat your wife (it's really not). When people ask "What does Islam say about X?" or "What do Muslims believe about Y?" about these topics, it's often not as simple as a single answer.

The thread was started to talk about Islamophobia. What are your thoughts on the examples of abuse and discrimination experienced by Muslim posters in this thread? What are your thoughts on how society as a whole and individual people might be able to challenge this and help improve the situation?

@Bingbangbongbash It could be interesting to consider how our experiences in those environments might be similar and different, and how we as women can support each other with challenges there.

You seem to be trying to make me out to be a racist or a white supremacist. I am not white, actually. Obviously acts of terrorism are committed by groups other than Muslims and I condemn them all equally.

Am I mistrustful of people in the US who defend their right to own automatic assault rifles? Yep. Am I mistrustful or Christians who protest outside American abortion clinics? Yep. Am I mistrustful of people who support Putin? Yep. It’s human nature to be suspicious of people who you think hold the sorts of beliefs that could result in harm being caused to you. It is sad and unacceptable that that can result in innocent Muslims/Christians/whatever being discriminated against. But if people do horrible things in the name of your religion then you have to expect that others might be wary of others in that religion.

There's a really great series on the Iplayer just now called Once Upon A Time in Northern Ireland. You could do with watching it, it seems.

I’ve asked twice about the burka and niqab but no Muslim posters are willing to answer those questions. interesting

We’ve probably missed it? What did you ask?

When did I say people have misconceptions about the burqa specifically? About the hijab yes I did but I don’t recall saying such about the burqa. The distinction matters. The burqa is that powder blue, one piece head to toe garment, that has mesh over the eyes and it a cultural to Afghanistan and the bordering areas of Pakistan.

ive not seen anyone wear a burqa in the Uk, cover their face yes, burqa no.

You aren't equal to men the most reliable hadiths say a woman is lacking in intelligence and her testimony in court is worth half of a man's, and less inheritance. its harder to get into heaven as a woman and to top it off women will have to share their husband with celestial virgins in heaven theres no celestial men for the women , men can have up to 4 wives, sex slaves in the old days , can initiate verbal divorce a woman has to petition the shariah court for permission to divorce. There is not much equality when God says you are thick compared to men I don't understand why a woman not born of it would choose to join unless it was to do with conversion to get married.

@Lesschubtolove Apologies, I think I was harking back to a few other posters mentioning burqa, yes you said hijab in your OP.

I’ve referenced him a bit on the thread, but modern scholar Shabir Ally explains this in a way that made sense to me, not all think this way of course, but that’s how I understand it. More than happy to send you the YT link if you’d like

But if it’s ‘latent’ how do you know whether it is prevalent or not? The Oxford dictionary says

‘of a quality or state) existing but not yet developed or manifest; hidden or concealed.’

so if it has no outward manifestation, how do you know it is there , still less whether it is increasing or not? Bit of a nonsense, really.

That's not true one of my DDs teachers was blown up at the Manchester arena. So yes everyday people have been killed and maimed by extremist ideology.

It’s not a problem.

i don’t know the cultural history of the burqa so I can’t speak on that. But I probably like many have seen pictures of how drastically Afghanistan has changed since the 70s

so in terms of covering the face, amongst the classical scholars this has been a source of disagreement as to whether it is obligatory. The ones who say it is have interpreted that the verse of the Quran that talks about the drawing your outer garments over your bison means, leaving the eyes or one eye to see the way. I personally cannot see how they’ve made such a connection. I find this argument does lead into misogyny and the inherent temptation of women.

i have however seen some women actively chose to put the face covering on out of their own accord and against their family and spouses wishes. I’ve heard women make feminist arguments for doing as such. In the west though, I do think covering your face will present some significant difficulties for the woman, specifically if she works- in fact I’d say it probably makes that next to Impossible unless it is in a mosque.

i think though there is space to challenge our assumptions about women who cover their faces, and I include myself in that. Should covering your face be a barrier to work? Should it make people feel uncomfortable?

i don’t believe it is a security risk as women who cover must show their face to fly, to go in a bank or petrol station or testify in court and those who refuse are being ridiculous. For instance in an Islamic court you cannot cover your face, nor can you on hajj when men and women freely mix - I find that perplexing when there are those who state covering the face is obligatory

No, because it’s the sentiment that people might not actually attack or abuse Muslims but the sentiment is still there… case and point this thread which at times is incredibly hostile and I’ve read the Jewish and priest amas esp compared to my own ama and this level of hostility is not there

What specific difference btween men and women means that, in the UK in 2023, men are the head of the head of the household and have to financially provide for women?

I don't see a significant difference in the judgment of Islam compared to other religions, such as different Christian denominations like the Latter-Day Saints. Judaism, and Hebrewism are also similar. However, Islam is increasingly integrating into mainstream society, which is why some people may perceive it as a more prevalent issue.

Head of the household? There isn’t really one in present day UK

should support their wives financially? The gender pay gap? The fact that women are more likely to be passed over for premonitions, then if they do have children the time they are taking out of work? Then childcare (that’s the premise of pregnant then screwed) discrimination in the hiring process ( I for one have been asked prior to having children in an interview if I planned having kids, I was then asked if I was having a termination when I did get pregnant and then actively discriminated against). Those are a few reasons

You said in a previous post that men are the head of the household.

And yeah the gender pay gap mean that women earn less generally. But according to you women shouldn't be expected to contribute to household finances even if they earn more than their male partner. And if the gender pay gap is a justification, then why do daughers inherit half as much as sons even if they have no intention of ever marrying a man? Surely they should inherit more, if the whole point is to address the gender pay gap.

Also, you said it's this way because men and women are different. The pay gap is not a way that they are inherently different, just a way in which they are treated diffrently.