To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

why are you defending things in terms of ‘150 years ago’ ‘suffragettes wore…’ etc? Society has changed hugely - mostly for the better - in the last 50 years, let alone 150.

The fact that marital rape was legal until horrifically recently is not a reason to justify why Muslim women must not withhold sex from their husbands. Both things are horrific and have no place in our world.

That some women adhere to (sexist) traditions like being walked down the aisle is not a reason to defend the idea of a man being in charge of a woman’s marriage - whether or not it’s ‘just on paper’. But arguably, a stupid tradition on one part of one day is entirely different to a system that places men on a pedestal. I wonder how many of the brides who are walked down the aisle by their dads have allowed them to choose their husbands to be / chaperone their dates.

As for your original premise - I don’t agree that Muslims are targeted more than any other marginalised group. Racism, Islamophobia, Anti-Semitism, homophobia, misogyny - any kind of bigotry - is abhorrent and anyone engaging with it must be taken to task for it.

And it’s been mentioned several times on the thread by myself and others, that the reason for this is due to women’s limited social roles at the time of revelation.

I think a lot of Ayat have been interpreted to be homophobic and homophobia is quite prevalent in Muslim communities. But I actually also think that on a level, your average young ish (millennial and gen x and z) Muslim probably doenst really care about homosexuality and is ok with gay people and supports gay marriage and inclusivity BUT feels a pressure to tow the company line or so to speak and that in this instance is that being gay is wrong

if you have time or the inclination, youtube Shabir ally and homosexuality, he is very nuanced and explains the Islamic stance far better than I can

Can you not see that what you're saying here is exactly one of the issues that I'm highlighting?

I'm not to blame for that misogyny, I'm not to blame for the people who sexualise children, any more than you are. These things aren't acceptable to me and I think from your posts that they aren't acceptable to you. Most people I know wouldn't find them acceptable either.

Yet, there is a widespread perception that Muslims behave in particular ways and condone particular things. There is an absence of exposure to the large number of Muslims who, like me, are just ordinary people. I celebrate different religious festivals (aka I eat lots of chocolate on different days) and if I'm going to a religious event it'll be at a mosque rather than a church, but that's probably the biggest differences between us.

Almost 7% of the UK population is Muslim. That's over 1 in 20 people. A number of those will be unpleasant people, just like a number of the other 18/19 in 20. But most people aren't bad people. The condemnation for the actions of bad people should be directed at those people, not at people who have done nothing wrong.

When I say I feel we need to do more to challenge anti-Muslim prejudices and discrimination, at no point does that mean anyone has to allow misogyny, child abuse, etc. What I'm thinking about is the experiences of, to borrow a phrase from earlier in the thread, General Muslims who experience discrimination and prejudice on a daily basis.

Many Muslim women, myself included, have strong views about the patriarchy and about societal politics. I can hold those views and still be Muslim, just like people can be opposed to things done by other faith systems and still identify as belonging to those faiths.

@Scirocco I respect that, and I can see the positive message it gives to you. But whilst you're doing that, and whatever wearing it means to you as an individual, you're also contributing to something that is a misogynistic double standard - that is unless men with long hair are also encouraged to wear them, and I'm open to that being the case. YOU'RE not doing it for men, but IT does serve men. Anything that puts expectations and limitations on women that do not exist for men, is surely misogynistic?

Don't get me wrong, I totally respect that other people choose to wear them. I don't attempt to stop them, I don't treat them differently because they're wearing one. But I do dislike the practice, as I dislike anything else that perpetuates misogyny, which ultimately contributes to the ongoing misogyny in society, which is a problem to me. It's not dissimilar to something like the age old argument about women being expected to shave their legs. Many women will say they don't do it for men or because men expect them to, and that's fine. Would I think less of somebody for doing it, and treat them differently? No. But would I think it was a positive thing that that social norm existed? No. Would I criticise it? Yes.

I don't understand why people would expect others not to feel that way, unless they can actually explain why it isn't misogynistic at its core.

I'm not trying to be against it - I would genuinely love for somebody to be able to explain away with seems unavoidable, but it's never happened.

Given that the majority of terrorist attacks in recent history are attributable to extremist Islamic groups and individuals I don’t think that fear or mistrust of people who subscribe to the Islamic faith is particularly unwarranted personally.

It’s not defending things because of xyz, rather that context is important. The last 150 years have been huge for women’s rights in the west. Islam is a younger religion and most Muslim majority countries are either developing or 3rd world nations (neither renowned for their social justice) or new countries on the world stage (Sykes picot). The formation of Saudi Arabia in the 30s halted a lot of social progress that was made across the Muslim world. The Ottoman Empire prior to that was quite pluralistic, non Muslims could visit Mecca and medina, homosexuality was decriminalised (far before the west) those are just a few instances, sadly though the formation of Saudi, which has become the nexus of the Sunni Muslim world ushered in a new wave of conservatism.

you’re misunderstanding the wali. They don’t get to choose the husband and they cannot object to the Union unless they have clear Islamic justifications (so the man is a murderer, a drug user, alcoholic etc). The wali doesn’t have to be the chaperone either, that could be anyone, male or female. And it’s not like a dining table with 3 around making awkward conversation or just being watched. Again historically this is for protection purposes

Your choice to wear it is an acceptance that it is the ‘correct’ way for a female Muslim to behave. Your acceptance of this reinforces the narrative that directly leads to women being forced to.

WTF does Salman Rushdie etc have to do with other Muslims? I mean, nothing. But I was directly answering the OP’s assertion that Book of Mormon and Charlie Hebdo was different because one is satire, one is an attack. The SV is not an attack, yet was treated like one. So I was asking her, specifically, what the difference is.

And as for the term ‘moderate’ - you can absolutely have a problem with it, and I will happily use a different term of your choosing to refer to a Muslim who is not ultra conservative or ultra orthodox or whatever the correct way to describe the clerics who rule regimes like Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan.

If you want a distinction to be drawn between the Muslims who kill, subjugate and torture in the name of Islam, and the ones like you who are nothing to do with that, then surely we need a way of naming them differently. I used moderate, to convey the idea of middle ground, in a spectrum of religiosity that ranges from barely practising to extremism, but if you have a better term, please tell me.

Again, no one cares. Just keep your prejudices to yourself, don't inflict them on Muslims.

Muslims are more at risk from white people in the UK than people are from terrorists in the UK.

Factually incorrect.

most recent study, revisited in 2022 states that Muslims account for 12.5% of terror incidents in the states, yet account for 50% of the news.

school shootings? Neo nazis? The alt right? Storming the capitol? Anti Muslim hate crimes? Any of those ring a bell?

None of those count, white terrorists are all mentally ill apparently.

@Lesschubtolove

I was wondering as a Muslim what your views of our armed services are and the decisions of our state to enter conflict in Islamic states i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan?

It is a nuanced question as I can potentially see divided loyalties for Muslims when as a democratic state we go to war in Muslim majority countries.

I know anecdotally Muslim colleagues have very strong views on these conflicts which have brought on a lot of introspection about the concept of loyalty to a nation state.

But all these things about women inheriting less and men being the head of the household are, according to you, true today. It doesn't matter what life was like 1000 years ago or whatever, if men and women are treated differently today that's sexist. Please expalin how it isn't.

Regardless of what younger Muslims might think, does Islam say that homosexuality is wrong, and that same-sex couples can't get married? Because if it is it's homophobic.

You are tying yourself in nuts trying to justify sexism and homophobia here.

@Lesschubtolove

As part of a Muslim community do you think we need more Muslims in our armed forces to mitigate any discrimination within these institutions?

Context is important. The societies that have regressed the most in terms of human rights - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi, Iran - are by the most park all Islamic states. Not exclusively - see some parts of Eastern Europe and several US States for the harmful influence of extreme Christian thinking - but largely.

The UK is a permissive, inclusive society (at least on paper, the best efforts of right wing arseholes notwithstanding) and so the very idea that people would choose to live their lives here under the rules of a religion - any religion - that sees one sex as less than the other is anathema to me.

You play down the importance of the wali, as if it’s just an old, meaningless tradition, yet it still exists as a role that is accepted. If it’s so meaningless, why not allow women to fulfil the role - or get rid of it completely? Ah yes, because the women must be protected and only men can do that. It’s nonsense. Sexist, outdated, patriarchal nonsense.

You can’t keep referring to the age of Islam as if somehow that 500 years excuses anything. The ‘context’ of Islam in this country at the very least, is that it should adapt and adhere to the society it exists within. So women should be seen and treated as equals, as should homosexuals and people of any creed or colour.

@aSofaNearYou , there is guidance in Islam about men and women turning away from focus on the superficial/appearances/etc to help people shift their focus to personal growth, actions speaking louder than words etc., just as there is in lots of belief systems, be that organised religions or more loosely structured spiritual ones. It's not a case of there just being guidance for women.

But discrimination isn't dependent upon whether or not someone is wearing a scarf (and it wouldn't make it right if it were). When I'm not wearing a scarf, I'm still experiencing discrimination. People respond to me differently because of my name, or because they know I'm 'other' (in this case, Muslim).

There's a lot of inequality in our society and I don't think it's unreasonable for people who experience discrimination to say "Excuse me, can I get some awareness over here?" without then being expected to launch into academic defences, scriptural/anthropological/political analyses etc. If someone says to me that they're experiencing discrimination, I'll do my best to support them and at least accept and have empathy for their experience. But, like a lot of people from a lot of different demographics, I don't have the experience of receiving that in return.

I feel like people say they want to ask questions about my experiences and life as a Muslim woman, but actually what people then do is raise the same, mainly academic or political points, many of which I either don't know the solution to or had no involvement with. I'd be happy to do an AMA or something about living as a Muslim woman, but I know that the majority of posts would end up being "how can you defend the patriarchy/child marriage/oppression/war?" when I don't. Scholars have spent years considering the academic interpretations of Islam, there are numerous perspectives on things just like in other religions, and I'm not an expert in these things and even if I were there's no way I could fit those centuries' worth of debate and reflection into an accessible post in an internet thread. People don't tend to have questions about what do I like to do at the weekend, or how do I find working in a male-dominated environment as a Muslim woman - actually, if people asked sorts of questions of people they perceive as 'other', they might well find that we all have more in common than it might appear.

Nice cherry picking of data there, what about all the other countries in the world? I am critical of all religion not just Islam, I have no skin in the game. But if you want to be Muslim you have to realise that some people will not respect that given the horrendous actions of some in your religion, which have caused significant harm in people’s recent memory.

If you want to disrespectful then expect to be disrespected in turn. Disrespect garners disrespect.

Unlike you I don't dismiss all white people as terrorists due to the actions of a few like Anders Brevik, the New Zealand mosque shooter who killed 50+ etc.

it's a shame that you can't make people ask the 'right' questions on MN isn't it?
But while we all support your right to live your life as you choose, I find it puzzling that you refuse to engage with posters on any issues outside of your personal experience.
These are not mainly academic or political points, despite what you say. It's not being goady or obtuse, or deflection, to ask about the connection between Islam and misogyny when the issue is there in plain sight.

I would presume that those questions come up because they are the areas most obviously different to the experiences of non-Muslim women. Are these questions actually asking whether your experience of existing within a patriarchy different / worse than any other woman, because of your faith?

The intersectionality of your experience is interesting - but is your experience of being a Muslim woman in a male dominated environment different to my experience in such an environment as a brown woman? How can you isolate what is due to your faith and what is due to your sex / ethnicity / age etc?

Where have I dismissed all Muslims as terrorists? Maybe read posts correctly? Your defensiveness is very telling. Obviously not all muslims are terrorists, but a lot of terrorists are Muslim. Those terrorist acts have, rightly or wrongly, generated mistrust of Islamic people, and I would argue that that is not unreasonable. Of course active persecution/violence etc against anyone is wrong and I don’t condone that at all. But just as you are acting defensively when your perceived safety is threatened, so are others towards your religion. It’s understandable in my opinion.

Because when make statements that you view all Muslims with fear and distrust, you are saying all Muslims are potentially terrorists.

Why do you not think the actions of white terrorists and racists have generated distrust of white people? Your silence on this is very telling.

Actually a lot of people with Irish /Irish sounding names found, at the height of The Troubles in Northern Ireland, that they were being physically or verbally abused. My late husband travelled frequently to the Republic of Ireland at that time and upon his return was subjected to abuse on the assumption from his name and the frequency of the visits that he was either activily supporting the IRA, fundraising or some other nefarious activity. I know a couple of friends who were questioned by the police on the basis of name and political persuasion. People do make assumptions based on appearance /name and political situations.

There was a study that found that just over half of Muslims in the UK belive that homosexuality should be illegal and just under half thought gay people shouldn't be allowed to be teachers, but you dismissed it in the 2015. Are only studies that agree with your worldview valid?

@AnorLondo

(Standard disclaimer, not a scholar).

My understanding of many aspects of how Islam developed is that there was a general acceptance of change as an iterative process. That's not unique to Islam, there are many examples of how changes are often considered more sustainable in they happen one step at a time.

A less controversial example of how a change went through several iterations would be the evolution of the guidance in Islam about abstaining from alcohol. (Some Muslims drink alcohol, that's their choice and where they're at in their own relationship with their faith, it's not for me to judge unless they puke in my car...)

Initially, alcohol was widely consumed. Then it was advised that people not drink before going to certain things, like if they were going to mosque to pray, as intoxication could impair their ability to focus on what they were doing. Once people adjusted to that, there were further gradual iterations, moving towards the current 'good practice' guidance to avoid alcohol. If that big change in social expectations (from lots of alcohol to no alcohol) had been made in one jump, people wouldn't have been willing to consider it.

Some changes that were made about women's rights at that time were similarly potentially huge and controversial. It's worth remembering that, as Islamic guidance was being shared about women having rights of inheritance, property ownership, working, etc, there were places in the world (in the Western world, actually!) where it was still being debated whether or not women could be considered to have souls or should be considered more equivalent to animals. Changes about improving rights for women, children, slaves and other oppressed groups came incrementally. And then... those incremental changes have stalled. That is unacceptable.

In relation to homosexuality, like with many things there are different interpretations, just like you'd find within Christianity and other faiths. Someone can be Muslim and not be homophobic, just like someone can be Christian and not be homophobic. There are schools of thought that hold the view that the emphasis should be on sexual relations being safe, sane and consensual, within a committed relationship structure. There are also many people who don't really know or care that much about the detailed interpretation of scriptures or what happened historically and are just happy to live and let live. I don't have any problems with other people's sex lives so long as everyone involved is happy to consent and competent to consent it's none of my business.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups.html

Very easy to see who the terrorists are

The advice to them is here in surah tauba

But when the sacred months expire slay those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity wherever you find them; seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them. But if they repent and establish the Prayer and pay Zakah, leave them alone. Surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Ever-Merciful.