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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

1000 replies

Lesschubtolove · 06/06/2023 12:33

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

OP posts:
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aSofaNearYou · 08/06/2023 09:33

@SallyWD Thankyou for your answer. It still doesn't quite explain away how a woman's long hair is considered sexually attractive and therefore in need of covering, particularly in a way that's more uncomfortable than anything the men are having to wear, without it being rooted in misogyny.

I agree about standards of the past - but isn't that exactly the point? It is inherently quite outdated and it's hard to find an excuse that stops that from being the case.

AnorLondo · 08/06/2023 09:38

i obviously don’t believe Islam to be a misogynistic faith or else I wouldn’t have joined it

Women inherent less than men because they are percieved to need men to look after them.

AnonyMenOhPee · 08/06/2023 09:44

Men don’t wear niqabs or burkas - so the fact that men have to only make token efforts to dress modestly while women have to / choose to go to such extremes is sexist in itself. Although if you live in a very conservative Muslim country or raised in a strict muslim society then you don’t get much of a choice about wearing it do you.

Scirocco · 08/06/2023 09:44

Sausagenbacon · 08/06/2023 08:10

So, the problems is that none of the posters on here have condoned the ill-treatment of Muslims.
But yet posters keep on coming back to say they are.
What I read instead are posters who are genuinely concerned about the impact of Islam on Women's freedom. Yet those concerns are thought of a goady .

A thread was started about how people, in this case women belonging to a particular demographic group have been experiencing discrimination in UK society from people not belonging to that particular demographic group.

Yet the thread quickly became other women telling those women about how the demographic group to which they belong is 'wrong'.

If we try to get back to the original topic, it really does seem like society in general finds it somehow more tolerable for Muslim women to experience prejudice and discrimination than some other demographics.

As well as the more obvious and overt experiences such as violence and threats, there are lots of ways in which elements of current UK society are either consciously or not consciously biased against Muslim women and other minority demographics. If we want to live in a free and tolerant society, surely part of that requires us all to identify and challenge inequalities of, eg, access to healthcare, access to ID, safe access to communities.

Sometimes this is technical. For example, when people apply for passports, the AI used to automatically evaluate photos isn't able to reliably evaluate photos if someone is wearing something like a hijab or a turban. The guidelines for photos state that headwear worn for religious reasons is accepted in the photos, but the software doesn't work properly for people who do. Why is the software not doing this? Probably because the people coding it didn't think about the groups affected. The more obstacles in place, the more people who won't go through the process, and end up without passports, etc.

Sometimes it's the absence of representation. If people don't see something, they often don't realise that thing exists or it doesn't feel as real and meaningful. For example, when we see Muslim characters in TV shows or films, how many of them actually pass the Riz Test? If the only exposure someone has to a group is of negative things, then of course they're going to have a negative view. I don't see many characters on TV or in films that are like me - most Muslim female characters are either downtrodden or obsessive radicals, and I don't identify with either extreme.

Sometimes it's a professional 'glass ceiling' - almost 7% of the UK population are Muslim according to the '21 census, but I don't think the number of Muslims in, for example, senior management or boardroom posts is anywhere close to that.

Sometimes it's an assumption about levels of intelligence or professional competence. We shouldn't just put up with people making assumptions about others based on their sex, skin colour, faith...

Sometimes it's the big things that are presenting risks to people's safety and liberty. Violence, inequalities in health outcomes, criminal justice system outcomes, etc.

Sometimes it's the little things that are frustrating. The lack of courtesies that are extended to others. The slightly fearful looks that gradually wear you down - to the lady on the bus: no, I'm not going to explode today, I didn't explode yesterday and I'm unlikely to explode tomorrow. The regular expectations that I should apologise for the actions of a bunch of misogynists halfway round the world who have done things I'd never condone and played no part in, when other demographic groups don't get that.

If we are going to live in a free and tolerant society in which we strive for equality, I think it's important that we all seek to challenge inequality and prejudices when we see them in ourselves and in society. When a demographic group points out ways in which their access to that equality is negatively impacted, I think we should listen to that group's experiences and seek to make things more equal for that group, including challenging our own assumptions and examining our own prejudices.

OMG12 · 08/06/2023 09:47

Twilightimmortal · 08/06/2023 08:05

Men get less reward praying at home than they do at a masjid whilst women get the reward of praying at the masjid whether they pray at home or there.

Its sinful for men to not pray in congregation for Friday Jummah whereas a women has a choice. Which is actually easier, when I'm working on a Friday I dont have to negotiate a long lunch break and can just pray at work unlike my muslim male colleagues.

This is why there is more prayer spaces for men and it is an obligation for them to pray at the masjid.

Why is there this distinction though?

Achwheesht · 08/06/2023 09:48

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Lesschubtolove · 08/06/2023 09:48

aSofaNearYou · 08/06/2023 09:17

But they can be involved! They just don’t act as the wali on paper

But why not? What's the excuse for that? What would happen if they tried to?

Do you mean what would happen if they acted as a wali on paper? The wali just signs the marriage contract as a witness.

historically we have to remember that in terms of business or legislation in 7th century Arabia women of all faiths didn’t have much of a role. Their role was more domestic and the man’s was the legal and political sphere. In its very essence the nikah contract is a legal and social contract for men and women to have an intimate relationship so it is a legal document. Which is why historically women didn’t sign it. It is also why the wali was involved in negotiating with the groom, as at that moment in time, women weren’t involved in business so May be naive in certain areas (not that women are intrinsically naive) so the wali is involved to ensure that a woman gets her rights and her mahr. Can you make the argument that it might not be relevant today? Absolutely! Especially when you have male relatives that might not act in the best interest of their female relative. It’s worth remembering that not too long ago, 150 years, women could be given in marriage without their consent here.

islam was revolutionary at the time for women’s rights, but it would appear that what was given to us by the Quran has been viewed as the ceiling rather than just the beginning. There is a saying in Muslim feminist circles, Islam gave women rights and Muslims took them away

how things are currently understood a marriage is invalid without a wali

OP posts:
M4J4 · 08/06/2023 09:56

aSofaNearYou · 08/06/2023 09:14

*No one cares if you’re uncomfortable.

Live and let live.

Don’t be so intolerant.*

Well that's not true, because lots of people share their discomfort. The things they've listed there are all highly misogynistic. So no, we won't all just "be tolerant" and ignore that because it happens to be related to a religion. People will be tolerant about things that aren't harmful.

Ok, then I don't care if you're uncomfortable. It's not my job to make you comfortable.

What do you want to do, join the people who rip off the hijab from women's heads and spit in their face? Discriminate against them by not hiring them? Exclude them from social groups by saying you can't sit with us?

Because intolerance means marginalising Muslim women and if you are in favour of that then you are the worst kind of tyrant.

Sausagenbacon · 08/06/2023 09:57

If we are going to live in a free and tolerant society in which we strive for equality, I think it's important that we all seek to challenge inequality and prejudices when we see them in ourselves and in society.
But yet you think it's wrong to challenge misogyny when it's in plain sight here? It seems that you think that we should accept it because that is Muslim culture?
Sorry, but no, I don't think it's acceptable for primary school-age girls to wear a hijab. Or women to be treated as second-class citizens.

SallyWD · 08/06/2023 09:59

aSofaNearYou · 08/06/2023 09:33

@SallyWD Thankyou for your answer. It still doesn't quite explain away how a woman's long hair is considered sexually attractive and therefore in need of covering, particularly in a way that's more uncomfortable than anything the men are having to wear, without it being rooted in misogyny.

I agree about standards of the past - but isn't that exactly the point? It is inherently quite outdated and it's hard to find an excuse that stops that from being the case.

Yes, it's a good question -why is women's hair seen as a sign of sexual attractiveness in a way a man's isn't BUT it's exactly the same in our culture. You only have to look around you to see the differences in male and female hairstyles. Many women spend a fortune on styling their hair, thinking about their hair, colouring their hair in a way that men just don't! Why is women's hair treated differently in OUR culture? Is that also a sign of misogyny? We don't recommend women cover their hair but we most definitely see women's hair as being linked to their attractiveness in the same way Muslims do. Muslim cultures try to remove outwards signs of sexuality in women and men.

aSofaNearYou · 08/06/2023 10:02

*Ok, then I don't care if you're uncomfortable. It's not my job to make you comfortable.

What do you want to do, join the people who rip off the hijab from women's heads and spit in their face? Discriminate against them by not hiring them? Exclude them from social groups by saying you can't sit with us?

Because intolerance means marginalising Muslim women and if you are in favour of that then you are the worst kind of tyrant.*

No obviously I don't want to do any of those things. But I do want to stop being expected to act like I don't think those examples of misogyny are a bad thing. Until someone can provide any convincing reason why they're not.

Lesschubtolove · 08/06/2023 10:03

Sausagenbacon · 08/06/2023 09:57

If we are going to live in a free and tolerant society in which we strive for equality, I think it's important that we all seek to challenge inequality and prejudices when we see them in ourselves and in society.
But yet you think it's wrong to challenge misogyny when it's in plain sight here? It seems that you think that we should accept it because that is Muslim culture?
Sorry, but no, I don't think it's acceptable for primary school-age girls to wear a hijab. Or women to be treated as second-class citizens.

I personally don’t like hijabs on little girls either. I don’t like bikinis on little girls either, I think that is sexualising children

no one is asking for you to accept misogyny, just listen when you are told that it is how our scripture has been contorted to suit misogynistic needs. Or listen when we say that some of us don’t find the hijab oppressive

OP posts:
loislovesstewie · 08/06/2023 10:03

Actually it might help if religious people of any persuasion could accept that their faith gives them no special privelege when they live in a society which is mostly secular /couldn't be arsed. It might help to accept that you can practice any religion but not expect to opt out of normal everyday life, because a book written years ago tells you to behave in a way at odds with today's society.

AnorLondo · 08/06/2023 10:04

ExitChasedByAMemory · 07/06/2023 23:46

@lysozyme It’s not about the vagina that needs a means a woman must be provided for by a man Confused

Traditionally, the father provided for the entire household and not just the daughter so even if she has own salary, the father is the one who was seen the breadwinner for his wife and children. And if it wasn’t the father, it was the state as the mother at that time did not work. Nowadays, this has changed as both parents often do work and so do the children and they eventually move out before or after marriage. Whereas in the past, the daughter would marry and she was then taken care of by her husband however any inheritance or gifts she received were hers alone. Compared to only the past two hundred years when a man could take his wife’s inheritance.

Traditionally and likewise in Islam, the man was seen the one who must provide as it’s his duty. That was why the son’s inheritance was higher as he would have to take care of his wife and offspring. However, it was up to the parents if they wanted to leave it as equal shares of inheritance. It was just to ensure that the daughters did inherit and that they weren’t overlooked.

So nowadays, even in Islam with both the husband and wife do work and they can choose the pool their finances together but still don’t have to as the wife’s salary belongs to hers alone as her money belongs to her whereas his is considered the family income even when her salary is higher. Yes, this can cause some marital issues and conflict if she’s the higher earner so this is why there have been rulings to stipulate that when the man provides money for the household, it doesn’t have to be designer handbags etc. but rather the day to day necessities and she can contribute if she wishes but it’s not necessary for her to do so.

You may have seen even on Mumsnet, financially controlling spouses, women who have stayed at home to take care of their kids and somehow they have no access to their husband’s account, and people commenting that it’s family money. So the man’s salary is considered family money and one of the requirements to get married is to be able to provide shelter for his wife and children. It doesn’t mean the woman cannot contribute or shouldn’t contribute but rather it’s his responsibility and she can choose to contribute if she so wishes.

How does the law 150 years ago justify men and women being treated differently today?

AnorLondo · 08/06/2023 10:07

No when people are raising the negatives im saying sadly it has been interpreted in a sexist, homophobic or insert whatever negative word fits way but I am pointing out that is more a reflection of the regime or person in question rather than the religion.

The religion teaches that homosexuality is wrong and treats men and women differently, even by your own admission. So it is sexist and homophobic.

OrderOfTheKookaburra · 08/06/2023 10:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OrderOfTheKookaburra · 08/06/2023 10:09

I faced from people WITHIN the group, to clarify.

Sausagenbacon · 08/06/2023 10:11

no one is asking for you to accept misogyny, just listen when you are told that it is how our scripture has been contorted to suit misogynistic needs. Or listen when we say that some of us don’t find the hijab oppressive
I hear what you say. But it is your choice to wear the hijab - which is fine. But is it a real choice for most women and girls? Don't you think it speaks of an attitude towards women that is outdated and - yes- misogynistic?
I would never support the abuse of any person because of their faith. But that doesn't mean that I can't see that women are treated as lesser than men in Islam. And that treatment isn't anachronistic, but is alive and kicking today.

Lesschubtolove · 08/06/2023 10:14

AnorLondo · 08/06/2023 10:07

No when people are raising the negatives im saying sadly it has been interpreted in a sexist, homophobic or insert whatever negative word fits way but I am pointing out that is more a reflection of the regime or person in question rather than the religion.

The religion teaches that homosexuality is wrong and treats men and women differently, even by your own admission. So it is sexist and homophobic.

But men and women are different! They have the same status but we are different. Different doesn’t mean lesser. Is that not part of the reasons that some feminists are so against trans women being women? Loads of really prominent feminists luce irigaray being one, have argued that women aren’t the same as men and it does women a disservice to be subjected to an economy of the same (I think that’s how she phrased it, she’s a slippery one )

OP posts:
aSofaNearYou · 08/06/2023 10:14

Yes, it's a good question -why is women's hair seen as a sign of sexual attractiveness in a way a man's isn't BUT it's exactly the same in our culture. You only have to look around you to see the differences in male and female hairstyles. Many women spend a fortune on styling their hair, thinking about their hair, colouring their hair in a way that men just don't! Why is women's hair treated differently in OUR culture? Is that also a sign of misogyny? We don't recommend women cover their hair but we most definitely see women's hair as being linked to their attractiveness in the same way Muslims do. Muslim cultures try to remove outwards signs of sexuality in women and men.

Yes, there's misogyny in our culture too. I would argue that it's not overt - I think we do link hair to attractiveness in men to an extent. But there's no denying that, across the board, women are expected to and often do put a huge amount more effort into their appearance so they can fit the conventional image of attractiveness. That's not good either. We should be moving away from that, and to an extent we are, slowly.

But there's something more overt about channeling those double standards into negativity, by saying the hair needs covering up as a result.

I also don't think the general consensus is that those misogynistic values in our culture are a positive thing that we should stick to. The trouble with this discourse is that the Hijab discussion is always filled with people saying it's just not misogynistic so we shouldn't question it.

Scirocco · 08/06/2023 10:16

aSofaNearYou · 08/06/2023 08:43

In my opinion, the reason people are so against the hijab is that anything where a woman is expected to display modesty, but men aren't, seems inherently misogynistic, and perpetuating a double standard that is harmful to society.

To this day, being honest, I've never seen anyone explain why the above is not the case. People usually just talk about how it's their choice, which I get, but it doesn't discredit the above.

I can't speak for all women who wear hijab, or all women who choose to cover their head for whatever reason, but I can share my thoughts on why I'm wearing hijab today.

I'm also wearing jeans, trainers, a shirt and an imitation leather jacket. Literally nothing I'm wearing is 'Muslim dress' other than I have a thin piece of fabric over my hair.

For me, when I wear a scarf, its main role for me is as a personal reminder of my faith. Lots of people have different ways of carrying a reminder of their faith with them, and this is one that I have. It reminds me that I should focus on actions and intentions rather than the superficial. It reminds me to follow my values and try to do the right thing, even when something else might feel easier. It's a personal reminder and a comfort, helping me feel connected to my faith and that I'm never alone even in the hardest moments.

I like my scarves. I wear them because I like them, they feel comfortable and right for me. I don't wear them for a man, or to prevent male attention. Men can lower their own gazes, and account for themselves.

If a woman doesn't want to wear a scarf, then that's her choice, and if I do want to, then that's mine. We're all on our own personal journeys through life and exploring our own relationships with ourselves, spirituality/faith and the universe. So long as we're not actively eating each others hamsters, is it really so hard to accept that people can take different paths and have different perspectives?

botanicalart · 08/06/2023 10:19

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6240

If you read how the hijab came about its such a sad story. A woman who had to poop in the fields was catcalled and instead of the pervert being scolded all women were ordered to cover.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6240 - Asking Permission - كتاب الاستئذان - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6240

Lesschubtolove · 08/06/2023 10:22

Sausagenbacon · 08/06/2023 10:11

no one is asking for you to accept misogyny, just listen when you are told that it is how our scripture has been contorted to suit misogynistic needs. Or listen when we say that some of us don’t find the hijab oppressive
I hear what you say. But it is your choice to wear the hijab - which is fine. But is it a real choice for most women and girls? Don't you think it speaks of an attitude towards women that is outdated and - yes- misogynistic?
I would never support the abuse of any person because of their faith. But that doesn't mean that I can't see that women are treated as lesser than men in Islam. And that treatment isn't anachronistic, but is alive and kicking today.

we can argue the toss about free choice, let’s accept all our choices are coloured by lots of things.

maybe some choose freely (as freely as anyone can), maybe some are encouraged based on what their parents, siblings friends etc do, maybe it’s passive encouragement or active. But if they find empowerment in that then it’s ok surely? Parents encourage their children to do what they think is best. I actually think for most (in the Uk and actually in countries where there are no mandated dress codes) it falls into these categories. That’s what I’ve experienced. In fact I’ve seen more wives saying that their husband really doesn’t like them wearing it than the opposite.

I really don’t see that it correlates to a misogynistic attitude. What I do see is men yield it as a tool of misogyny and oppression. I also see women reclaiming it, again sort of like the term queer, and I see that more and more with women taking it on and making it their own.

OP posts:
AnorLondo · 08/06/2023 10:23

Lesschubtolove · 08/06/2023 10:14

But men and women are different! They have the same status but we are different. Different doesn’t mean lesser. Is that not part of the reasons that some feminists are so against trans women being women? Loads of really prominent feminists luce irigaray being one, have argued that women aren’t the same as men and it does women a disservice to be subjected to an economy of the same (I think that’s how she phrased it, she’s a slippery one )

Biologically yes.

It's been asked multiple times, but no one has been able to expalin what it is about the biology of men and women that mean that men are head of the household, women inherit less, men are expected to comtribute to the household when women aren't, men are allowed to marry outside their religion when womena aren't and women need a male guardian until they are married.

Also noticed you didn't mention the homophobia. So you admit that Islam is homophobic?

FourFourOne · 08/06/2023 10:24

AnorLondo · 08/06/2023 10:04

How does the law 150 years ago justify men and women being treated differently today?

This is the crux of it for me, and not one of OP’s (or the other Muslim posters’) responses has helped to make this any clearer.

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