To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

Also a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's because she is deficient in intelligence Sahih al-Bukhari 2658.

When a man invites his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he (the husband) spends the sight being angry with her, the angels curse her until morning Sahih Muslim 1436.

Women form the majority of hell Sahih al-Bukhari 5198

Men get at least 2 houris in heaven (transparent beautiful virgins who don't defecate or urinate) martyrs get more Sahih al-Bukhari 3254

The wives aren't allowed to curse or harm their husbands as they are just temporary guests until their husband meets their houris in the next life.
Riyad as-Salihin 287

How could any woman think it's not sexist ?

Can confirm, apparently I'm not allowed to eat a hamster.

They wouldnt make much of a meal.

Disappointingly, they apparently taste like chicken.

There are UK suppliers of hamster corpses though, if anyone wants to check?

🤣🤣🤣

@M4J4 and @JandalsAlways clearly have the same sense of humour as I don’t see how it’s funny at all.

In fact, victims of hate crimes, including Muslims, don’t often report things for fear of retaliation. There have also been news stories over the years of Muslims being targeted near or in mosques. The fact that only some made the headline only goes to show the so-called minor infractions are often overlooked. There was this https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mosque-hit-run-leicester-muslim-video-cctv-a8936151.html hit-and-run incident, a man stabbed on his way home from the mosque, someone in a van try to run over pedestrians near a mosque and many more incidents over the years some reported globally, some reported locally and many unreported as victims of hate crimes often do not want to bring more unwanted attention to themselves. There were also footage of Muslim women being attacked in parks. I’ve had witnessed personally a Muslim woman being spat out on a bus, another time someone pushing Muslim children near the mosque and finding it funny. So I don’t see how it’s funny that Muslims do get spat out near mosques as that’s clearly a place of worship so there would be many people who can be easily targeted there.

This hit-and-run article didn’t get linked somehow and I’m sure many know of Christchurch mosque shootings that happened not too long ago. There was also another incident a Muslim family being attacked during a wedding etc. The fact of the matter is that Islamophobia does exist and can any form of hate crime can and does escalate so many victims do not report things. I remember I was on the opposite platform and woman clearly went out of her way to push a Muslim woman and literally elbowed her in the stomach. She was with her children. The platform was practically empty, by the time I went to report it the Muslim woman had already boarded the train with her children and nothing was done afterwards because what can be done? She just continued to board the train and I don’t know if she went on to complain because it’s not something I read about later. So I find it incredibly shocking that some posters find it funny implying as though it’s hilarious or hard to believe that Muslims can spat at anywhere or near a mosque.

I'm not sure what thread you're talking about but I personally think the hijab and other religious clothing like it is deep rooted in misogyny and it does offend me that my dc are forced to see it when for example doing worksheets etc at school they often have a picture of someone in one. Also bbc bitesize always seems to have someone wearing one. It makes me even more sad when in see primary aged dc wearing one. What chance of a choice to wear it do they have once they've been thoroughly conditioned.

If they had someone representing other religious clothing for example wearing a cross or a Sikh etc fair enough but it's solely that religion and I don't agree with it being so heavily represented in so many areas of life now. I feel I personally and my dc am being conditioned to accept it but I don't.

I have absolutely no issues whatsoever with Muslims practicing their faith privately without insisting on showing it this way. It was very uncommon once to wear a hijab and to know some girls are literally getting killed for not wearing one in some countries should be a wake up call imo.

Are there not calls for sharia even in the UK though
Then all the rules will apply
With the local population falling and demographics changing it could be true in a few years
Also you cannot pick bits and pieces of the Koran
Nothing was thousands of years ago every bit is relevant and enforceable today

I don’t have a specific issue with Islam but I don’t like any religion that treats women as less than men- it’s just an excuse for enabling the patriarchy under the guise of an invisible, likely non existent, god

BTW, I find it interesting that we talk of ' Islamophobia' . We say sexism, racism , but we use the word phobia as though anyone who has a negative thought about Islam has an actual phobia. It makes us think that we have a reaction like claustrophobia or arachnophobia.

@botanicalart That’s just scaremongering. I’ve done my own research on this and there’s no such thing. It wasn’t asking for Sharia Law but rather a Sharia Court just as there are Jewish courts and ecclesiastical courts in England. But instead it was misconstrued as somehow Muslims are trying to implement Sharia but it was never clarified how and in what way and that it was not Sharia Law. Just like there was a scaremongering story about a massive multilevel mosque in America in Ground Zero when that was really not the case at all.

Yes, but most of the actions seems to stem from fear as though Muslims are going to have their so-called Muslamic ways and take over or something. It was like some members of the EDL were trying to cause mistrials and then say that somehow Muslims are given preferential treatment, trying to say that Muslims are trying to enforce Shariah etc. Or amplify certain doubts or stories and portray Islam in a certain way.

These are all scaremongering tactics that are meant to stoke fear and animosity.
-phobia does not always mean to have an actual intense fear but rather than extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something so I’d say that Islamaphobia is actually is quite accurate.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2006/2/19/poll-40-of-uk-muslims-want-sharia#:~:text=Four%20out%20of%20ten%20British,country%2C%20a%20poll%20has%20showed.

im sorry but this is the way Islam is being acted out in the world. This is the way the law is being implemented.

your posts are yet another iteration of “This isn’t real Islam”. If this is the case, we need to see a reformation within Islam, like Christianity 500 or so years ago where apparent abuses are stopped where women are treated the same as men, where long outdated concepts like amputation are outlawed etc.

But using phobia is a method of shutting down any argument. It's saying to people who have very real concerns that they need treatment to get over the phobia. It's interesting that we also say transphobic thereby implying that any one with concerns about that has an irrational fear. It's why practices such as FGM and forced marriage were ignored, because any criticism of it was viewed as interfering in the way of life of a minority and was therefore phobic, not a genuine concern.
As I keep stating, I have little to no time for organized religion. The Abrahamic religions all place strict controls on females and I find that abhorrent. I was sent to a faith school and came out an atheist totally due to the hypocrisy.

@Lesschubtolove

Brahumbug · 06/06/2023 12:55

I am an ardent atheist and as such I will defend someone's right to practice their religion, I oppose all claims for religious privilege, such as closing down criticism or censorship/so called blasphemy.
I don’t really see many who advocate for censorship based on blasphemy though?

Danish cartoons, Charlie Ebdo? The boy in Yorkshire who took his own copy of the Koran into school and ended up being threatened?

Not real Islam

https://www.refworld.org/docid/5bc051006.html

not real Islam

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/nov/17/saudiarabia.international

not real Islam

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10538379/Female-World-Cup-official-faces-lashes-jail-extramarital-sex-alleged-RAPE-Qatar.html

not real Islam

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/qatar-information-for-victims-of-rape-and-sexual-assault/guidance-for-victims-of-rape-and-sexual-assault-in-qatar

There should be riots in these countries to stop this sort of thing,

To be honest a lot of the Islamic extremist terrorism stuff has massively decreased since covid 19. What happened ? As long as there's no extremists and I'm left alone to be an atheist I have no issue with people's private worship. Things for now seemed to have calmed down a lot.

One poster said that. Lots of other (Muslim and non-Muslim) posters gave you thoughtful and appropriate suggestions.

The problem with those defending Islamic dress for women and saying it is a free choice is that I wonder if they have deeply considered whether it is truly a free choice. A woman brought up it in a secular society with western clothing of no religion is unlikely in my opinion (not impossible) to don hair coverings and very loose clothing.

Ultimately the decision to wear a human etc. Is based on accepting a community norm and to portray a visual symbol of Islam. I wonder to what extent the dress is a symbol of devotion (why wouldn't a lapel badge do?) or is it in fact acceptance of a male dominated view of society where women are viewed as sexual objects and should shield themselves as such?

Are the arguments presented for the hijab a psychological protection against the deep rooted reality that, yes, the motivation for the dress is rooted in misogyny and even if some where it freely there are certainly some where it is not a free choice.

I still feel there will be an element of disconnect for young Muslimngirls/women being brought up in a secular society where they see western peers drinking, partying, listening to music, dating etc. and realising that the nature of their religion means they need to adopt a different lifestyle. I think this drives the women deeper into their own community and weakens social integration to an extent meaning the concept of othering is perpetuated.

It would be interesting to see if Muslim women are making out on sporting and performing art opportunities due to a dress code? Also is Islamic society in the UK geared up for the free participation of Muslim women in higher education where this can mean relocating and being in close proximity with those that are definitely living a different lifestyle?

On anode general note if I were to relocate to a largely Islamic country I would be forced to adhere to religous/social norms as a has been discussed upthread. We are a tolerant diverse country accepting of a range of faiths but that concensus should be built on the fact there should be overly overt imposition of religious values on the secular majority by any religion (including Christianity). To this end secular philosophies should be respected in terms of overall education and society behaviour. For instance we should not have to modify education or planning laws to appease any single religion in the country. The situation is not the case in the UK currently but looking at demographic changes I think it sensible to bear our social balance in mind going forward and this does include scrutiny of all religious and social impostions.

The arguments above apply to all religions so this is not a 'phobia'.

I think we need a drive towards a progressive equal society and to do this it may be that all religions have to accept that ultimately there will be pressure to lose some of their more conservative practices. It is noticeable that a lot of successful independent Mulsim women have ditched the hijab e.g. In politics are senior roles and perhaps this is an indication that with education and social mobility religion becomes less of a dominant feature in peoples lives especially towards cultural norms that could be deemed oppressive.

No one truly has free choice. Even the atheist growing up in a secular society will be drawn to dress similar in what is deemed acceptable by the society that they live in.

I can from an atheist to Islam and the freedom I feel just putting my scarf and abaya on instead of trying to wonder if I look pretty enough or if my belly is overhanging, wearing makeup just to go to the corner shop etc. I remembered how I used to feel recently when I went to a womens only event and didn't wear my scarf or outer clothes and I'm glad I'm free from that for the most part.