To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

They had different social roles. Jesus in his life time had very few followers. Muhammad led a growing community who regularly came under attack

That's only what you're guessing is the the reason Jesus never killed a person.

Jesus and Mo are not remotely the same when it comes to violence against other people.

The family I come from is a mix of Christians and Muslims and I grew up having to go to mosque with random relatives and friends every now and then. I find it really fascinating how western reverts parrot the same script when it comes to defending Islam, the twists that are made to try to make it all sound palatable. You all say almost exactly the same word for word, it's crazy. It's never remotely like what is actually preached (from behind a curtain, literally) in any mosque I've been to.

Well maybe you aren’t going to very nice places because it is what I’ve heard and it is what I was taught be secular academics at a redbrick uni.

It is her right in Islam (as it is her mothers and sisters) she is not responsible for financially supporting a household. She can if she choses but it is not her responsibility

and no I don’t see it was sexist

If it isn't Islamicly acceptable and yet Muslims are doing it, does that make them non Muslims or bad Muslims? Ofcourse I'm going to view it as part of Muslim culture when Muslims use that term, I've never heard it from a non Muslim.

I was trying to engage with this thread to be honest about why I don't like Islam. Islam or things carried out in the name of Islam have personally impacted me. Why would I like something that has caused me to avoid parts of my locality, caused me to be spat on (much like you have), called names, changed safety and security in my work, read sm which clearly is anti-western culture, been detailed as a partial cause for the allowance of abuse etc? These are all reasons why I don't like Islam. You may not see them as valid but they are there never the less.

Yes, there are good and bad but you’re still expecting Muslims to condemn something and I’m pretty sure I read that you wrote “all” in a previous post but I am happy to be corrected . However, I do not believe that just because Muslims are not condemned something en masse that that what allows people to be radicalised. There are unfortunately some portrayals of Muslims in the media that can alienate some people as they will be vilified and bullied. I remember a beautiful girl called Laden in my school and I can’t remember her full name and I remember it was difficult to pronounce and so she just asked us to call her Laden. I can’t remember her full name but it was definitely something bint Laden something something something. It was a very long Arabic name and all of a sudden she was bullied because of her name. Depending on which Arab speaking country you’re from, there are some who have these long names where it’s like May daughter of blah son of xyz son of abc just to trace lineage and the name can get very long. This is just one example among many, such as Gitmo etc.

To be fair Christianity gets a right old bashing on here, much more so than any other religion.
I have no issue with folk having a faith. I have a huge issue with any dogmatic religion, and an even bigger issue when people (normally men) use religion as an excuse to start war, show zero tolerance to others, treat women as shit on their shoe and objects for sexual pleasure, and where women have to do as they are told by the men.
I have never forgotten being told off in Singapore airport because I had gone into the multi-faith 'hub' to quieten my thoughts before a long flight. I hadn't realised that women were expected to go into a separate section and not be in with the men, I got an absolute roasting from a gentleman (no idea which religion he was aligned with) but he told me as a woman I was not permitted to be in with the men....another (male) passenger said something along the lines of 'brother she is of a different faith and does not know your ways!' (All said in English!) I couldn't tell you if the two men had the same beliefs or different, but either which way, I shouldn't have felt I needed to mumble an apology and I sure wouldn't now, but then I'm much older, much more confident and quite frankly don't give a rats arse, where as 23 yr old me did care, and then spend a long flight ruminating on why my presence had caused such an offence. I was sat quietly, modestly dressed and both gents should have been focusing on their own worship, and should have been able to ignore my presence...
I'm not phobic or frightened by any faith, but I will admit that I don't like religion, subtle but important difference.
But how many religious disciplines have been created by women....?
Why is it men get to decide how a woman should behave?
Why don't men cover their heads (this is in other religions too not just Islam ie I've noticed nuns wear head coverings and yet most monks don't, although some might don a hood)
Why is it 'wrong' to love someone of the same sex?
Why is it okay for men to 'sow their seed' before settling down, but if a woman has sex outside of marriage she's seen as lesser, or tainted in someway?
So so much misogyny in so many religious texts....I mean proverbs just drips with it...apparently a nagging woman, should be treated like a braying donkey and worked harder....of course if the man stopped pontificating and actually helped with the chores she wouldn't have to nag...funny how that last bit never got mentioned!

It makes them bad people, and by default bad Muslims.

and you can’t see how you viewing the word gori as part of muslim culture is prejudice when you’ve been told by a few different people on this thread that it’s a south Asian word. It is not used by Arabs, Indonesians, Turks, or any other Muslim community and you’ve been told it’s been used to describe Muslims (myself and another poster). Just because you’ve never heard a non Muslim use it doesn’t mean that they don’t. I had Hindu colleagues call me gori pakori (in jest). It’s a reason to not like those people who have used it to you in a derogatory fashion, but it’s not a valid reason to dislike all Pakistanis and it’s not a valid reason to dislike Islam as a faith as the word gori has nothing to do with it

Women are treated differently than men. They get less inheritance. They are not expected to provide regardless of how much they earn. They cannot be the head of the household. They cannot marry outside their religion whereas men can. Please explain to me how that is not sexist?

And what it is about women intrinsically that means a man should provide for them?

Well maybe you aren’t going to very nice places because it is what I’ve heard and it is what I was taught be secular academics at a redbrick uni

Are secular academics regularly preaching in mosques now? Of course what they say will be completely different and watered down compared to the actual preaching of religious leaders.

Sorry haven't RTFT. I think it's much easier to pick on Muslims because often it's easy to physically identify them and it makes them an easy target

I should’ve been clearer it’s not what I’ve heard at the mosque I attended and I wouldn’t describe it as a liberal mosque but it does a large amount of community outreach

it is also not what I’ve heard at university

Well, at least we have the answer to the AIBU by this point in the thread.

@lysozyme It’s not about the vagina that needs a means a woman must be provided for by a man

Traditionally, the father provided for the entire household and not just the daughter so even if she has own salary, the father is the one who was seen the breadwinner for his wife and children. And if it wasn’t the father, it was the state as the mother at that time did not work. Nowadays, this has changed as both parents often do work and so do the children and they eventually move out before or after marriage. Whereas in the past, the daughter would marry and she was then taken care of by her husband however any inheritance or gifts she received were hers alone. Compared to only the past two hundred years when a man could take his wife’s inheritance.

Traditionally and likewise in Islam, the man was seen the one who must provide as it’s his duty. That was why the son’s inheritance was higher as he would have to take care of his wife and offspring. However, it was up to the parents if they wanted to leave it as equal shares of inheritance. It was just to ensure that the daughters did inherit and that they weren’t overlooked.

So nowadays, even in Islam with both the husband and wife do work and they can choose the pool their finances together but still don’t have to as the wife’s salary belongs to hers alone as her money belongs to her whereas his is considered the family income even when her salary is higher. Yes, this can cause some marital issues and conflict if she’s the higher earner so this is why there have been rulings to stipulate that when the man provides money for the household, it doesn’t have to be designer handbags etc. but rather the day to day necessities and she can contribute if she wishes but it’s not necessary for her to do so.

You may have seen even on Mumsnet, financially controlling spouses, women who have stayed at home to take care of their kids and somehow they have no access to their husband’s account, and people commenting that it’s family money. So the man’s salary is considered family money and one of the requirements to get married is to be able to provide shelter for his wife and children. It doesn’t mean the woman cannot contribute or shouldn’t contribute but rather it’s his responsibility and she can choose to contribute if she so wishes.

I cannot distinguish between a good muslim and a bad muslim, i just know it was said outside a mosque clearly by muslims and i was spat on and have had it ssid by other muslims at different times, ofcourse thst will shape my thinking. The word gori isn't my only reason, it's part of a list of reasons and sympton of how I'm viewed by many Muslims, it was clearly a insult when said. You've locked in on this and not my other reasons and not viewed them as a whole. I haven't said I dislike all Pakistani's, I've implied the reverse. I don't like Islam for many reasons which surely when you view them as a whole you can understand some of that feeling?

If its not about the vagina then what is it? That's the primary difference between men and women. What is it about men and women that means one has to look after the other? And I'm not talking about centuries ago I'm talking about now.

@Cuckoosheep , you said above that you view people you know to be Muslims as individuals who would be good people if they weren't religious - does that mean that their faith in itself means you consider them to not be good people?

Yes, was about to say the same. A lot of jaw dropping ignorance and mental gymnastics going on in this thread.

@Scirocco no, not all. They are good people regardless of their faith. I doubt they would do anything majorly bad if they were any other religion or had no religion at all. Its who they are.

I'm sure the people who commit any horrible offence/act (terrorism, abuse etc) would likely be awful people or at least easily indoctrinated into some other cause. I can't imagine they would be radicalised into doing the same acts or find community and support in doing them as easily in the UK.

Funny how all the people who don’t like Muslims are always spat on outside mosques.

Or not funny at all

Ok, maybe irony then, you’re walking along thinking how you don’t like Muslims, end up outside a mosque, and SPLAT - a globule of saliva hits.

Don't be daft, have you ever been to Rochdale or Oldham? Try I was coming out of the doctors and walking to my car in Summer with a tight tshirt on (top heavy), walking past a mosque. I doubt I was thinking about disliking Muslims as I don't. I dislike Islam- not people but I doubt I was thinking this either. Not sure what I was thinking. I know I was scared wouldn't you be? No I didn't argue or say anything back, I ran to my car and they laughed.

Well, let’s just hope a Muslim doesn’t eat your hamster.

My hamster isn't halal