To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

So a woman can only advocate for herself if a widow or divorcee, otherwise she's deemed as too naive and needs a man to protect her? What a depressing thought.

Thank you for that it is very interesting. I like the idea of no compulsion because if it isn't a choice freely made, it's a bit meaningless.

I think I would struggle with covering up in the summer. Especially when we have weather in the high 30s like last year! But I dare say if I chose to cover up I could find some light airy clothes.

Bit why can't a woman who has not been married advocate for herself?

Women are not more naive than men.

That is pure sexism.

Oh your poor friend. The man sounds very creepy.

Another thing I have a huge problem is that Muslims (maybe other religions too), say if the husband dies, his property etc doesn’t authentically go to the woman in eg his will. It’s assumed that his family will take care of the widow and the females are generally happy with this. How do I know this? My old Jewish boss had his client him about wills and what to do and of course the client mentioned his wife etc and what would or should be left to her. My boss tried to persuade his client to provide for the wife more but they were all happy that she got less eg no house etc

I didn't have anyone need to vouch for me or advocate for me when I got married. If my dad had said "Don't marry that guy, he's a prat", I might have reviewed my decision, but ultimately I chose to say yes to my husband's proposal and I said yes when the imam asked if I wanted to marry him.

I didn't mean that in relation to Islam, I just meant that personally I would have not liked it if my DH had asked my dad if he could marry me - luckily he didn't!

Can I ask a question? If I don't like any religion, and dislike organised religion in general, including Islam, is that Islamaphobia?

Regarding whether headscarves are worn through choice, obviously it varies hugely. There's such variation amongst Muslims but I think there's a tendency to lump all Muslims together and say things like "Yeah Muslim women are forced to wear headscarves" as if this is a universal truth.
I have a Japanese friend (not Muslim) who married a Turkish Muslim man. He put no pressure on her to wear a hijab. However, his mother gave her a terrible time. She thought it was disgraceful that her DIL wouldn't cover her hair. After years of pressure she gave up and accepted her DIL wouldn't wear one. They have 3 daughters, all grown up and the MIL has not mentioned hijabs. She knows she'll lose the battle!
I know many Muslim women who live nearby (friends and colleagues) who choose not to wear hijabs. They are not pressurised by family to wear one. They say its between them and God. Some of them wear headscarves when praying only.
I have another Muslim friend who never wore a hijab. Some members of her family did, some didn't. No pressure from anyone. At the age of 35 she chose to start wearing one. When I asked her why she said it was 2 reasons:1) it helped her to feel more focused on God and removed distractions such as wanting to look attractive etc. It was an anti-vanity action 2) her faith was a big part of her identity and she wanted to express this with her clothes. It was purely 100% her choice. Surely as feminists we should support women to express themselves however they want.
I know western women feel liberated being able to wear miniskirts and revealing clothes. That's great! We should support their free choice to dress how they want. But aren't they dressing for the make gaze. Isn't it also the sign of a patriarchal society?

Can I ask what would happen if someone made a Muslim equivalent of Monty Python's Life of Brian ? When it was released there was outrage from the Church and more conservative parts of society. There was an attempt to get it banned, and indeed in Ireland (and Swansea?) it remained banned untill 1997 (I think). The Pythons said it wasn't blasphemous, but heretical (a nice distinction) "

"It wasn't about what Christ was saying, but about the people who followed Him – the ones who for the next 2,000 years would torture and kill each other because they couldn't agree on what He was saying about peace and love."

If a concept can't stand up to robust ridicule, it probably isn't worth considering...

But no-one, issued the Christian equivalent of a fatwah. People had the right to be outraged (and many were) but no-one was forced to the cinema to watch it, and most importantly, no one died because they were connected to its creation, and I can't quite believe that that would be the case if they'd chosen Mohammed as the (not quite) star of the film.

This is very similar to England in the 17th century regarding the status of widows.

That's probably true. And as a way of thinking, it should have stayed in the 17th century!

But no-one, issued the Christian equivalent of a fatwah.

A fatwah is a religious judgement. This is fairly common when there is a supreme religious authority (in this case an ayatollah; in the case of Catholicism the pope). But everyone and their dog thinks that a fatwa is a call for a death sentence and uses this word without knowing what it really means.

I apologise for the misuse of the word. I think the point stands though.

@ASmallFurryCreatureFromAlphaCentauri I would be offended by a film making fun of The Prophet Mohammed, Peace Be Upon Him. I'd probably grumble to my friends, maybe write a grumpy letter that I wouldn't send. I might even start a thread on here about how I would feel.

That absolutely does not mean that someone doesn't have the legal right to make that film. And nobody should die because they made or said something that other people found offensive. I'm allowed to be offended, people are allowed to offend me, and I'll do my best to get over that just as I hope people can get over all the times I'm sure I've caused offence.

There is a lot of talk In certain conservative Islamic circles of a woman’s shyness which is incredibly essentialist.

in reality the wali functions like a PP said, in the crack on we’re here to support you. I only had one on paper not in practice

No I think it means you don’t like religions. If you specifically poured that dislike onto Islam and Muslims then maybe

That’s not how inheritance laws work in Islam. The wife gets a share, she guards the children’s share until they are of age and then his parents if they are alive get a share

Women’s value in Islam is tied to her being a virgin. Once she is a divorcee or a widow, she is considered “spoilt goods” and unlikely to command much of a dowry from a potential husband, so having a guardian is no longer a necessity.

But you can seriously claim that Islam isn't misogynistic while also saying that according to Islam unmarried women need a male guardian and that men are head of the household and are the only ones who can marry outside their religion. It doesn't add up.

Thanks for clearing that up but that's truly awful!

Then there is the issue of multiple wives, even when the first wife objects. She then has two possibilities: divorce or, effectively, be discarded in favour of the newer model.

About the hijab - what I find abhorrent is that I regularly see girls on their way to primary school wearing a hijab while, of course, their brothers trot along next to them wearing ordinary western clothes. I simply can't understand why schools don't ban this, and prosecute parents who don't send their daughters to school.

That's not accurate. Misogynistic subcultures in lots of parts of the world (yes, including some 'Muslim' ones, but not restricted to those!) have this view of women, but that's definitely not the Islam I know and have studied.

The objectification and commodification of women like that needs to be condemned whenever it's encountered.

The Prophet, Peace Be Upon Him, loved all his wives, May Allah Be Pleased With Them, and respected them. Along with his daughter, Fatima, May Allah Be Pleased With Her, They are considered to be the best examples of believing Muslim women, in their faith and deeds. Only one of his wives was a virgin at the time of marriage. There are lots of debates about different questions about his wives, but in this matter, there's a pretty clear example for practising Muslim men - all women must be respected and a woman's worth cannot be tied to virginity, when the best example of a believing man married and respected women from diverse backgrounds and who were not virgins. Indeed, his first wife, Khadija, May Allah Be Pleased With Her, was older than him, previously married, and a businesswoman.

A hijab is a scarf so it is possible to wear both that and western clothing. What I've seen is little girls in both a hijab and a floor-length long-sleeved dress while their male counterparts are in western clothing, as you noted, @Sausagenbacon. That said, I see it with adults, too. If there are mixed sexes it is always the woman who is wearing traditional dress while the men wear western clothing.

To clarify: this is not the case with all people but the case when there are mixed sexes and one sex is dressed in 'modest' clothing while the other is wearing western clothing.