To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

Why does the woman have a guardian?

It is foundationally the same principle of asking the father for a woman’s hand in marriage.

my understanding it is to advocate for the woman and to act in her best interests, to ensure her mahr is paid and she’s marrying a nice guy.

I hope you don't mind if I ask some questions?

Is it a choice to wear a head covering? How a
re women who do not wear it received. I have a Muslim friend who does not cover her head. She is from Turkey so maybe it isn't the culture there?

You spoke about some people thinking some Muslim women don't cover their heads properly - in what way? I love the style of many Muslim women's head scarfs.

Do you not have to dress modestly at home? So do you wear shorts and t-shirts at home?

You mentioned there are modesty rules for men. What are they? I think it is in the summer that it tends to stand out that you have the Muslim man in shorts and t-shirt and the women fully covered. Do you get too hot? I follow a Muslim lady on IG and so see this in her photos - some of her dresses look pretty airy though.

Sorry for the 20 questions, I'm just very interested!

If my DH had asked my father for my hand in marriage I would have refused to marry him. I am not a parcel to be handed over.

And you don’t find this horrifying?

I wouldn’t marry a man who asked my father for permission to marry me.

any man showing up to ask about our daughter would not receive a welcome reception. She is perfectly capable of making her own decisions

Are you asking me if it is my choice to wear a head covering? If so then yes it is, and it is for many women for a variety of different reasons. There are also some for which it is not a choice due to country or family pressure.
theologically is it a choice or a voluntary act? Well there’s debate but the majority of classical scholars say a woman must cover from head to toe (some even say face). There are more progressive contemporary scholars and there have been classical scholars who have argued that it was a custom of the people. (Mohammed abdu being one such classical scholar)

the ‘proper’ or correct hijab, varies but it typically is a lose fitting garment in a dull colour, no make up, no perfume, flat shoes, no jewellery, and a simple scarf. But this is a standard a lot of men have spent a lot of time debating. - go figure. So that sort of male may say that a woman wearing a turban or a burkini isn’t covering correctly. But I too love it, it is identity on our own terms- well that’s how I see it.

so if I lived with just my husband then no I’m free to be as naked as I choose. With my kids it is the same as they are young. So when they get to a certain age then the private parts are navel to knee, now that’s not say I could walk around topless in front of them it’s that if I had another child I could breastfeeding said child in front of them, and I could wear vests, T-shirts and longer shorts etc. My direct relatives (ones I cannot marry) brother, dad, uncle, mum it is navel to knee.

men’s private parts are navel to knee, nothing tight, so no skinny jeans or Speedos. T shirt at the beach or pool and long board shorts. It’s also impermissible to trim the beard- funny how that’s never enforced with as much rigour as women’s dress though isn’t it.

do I get hot? Yes. I do dress accordingly, ultra light layers and fabrics, an Alice band for my hair so it’s out of my face and a light breathable scarf and dress/ abaya. Abayas are actually very light. I did get hot in the emirates and Saudi in July though- it was 45 degrees and we were walking around in the middle of the day but I think in that heat I’d have been hot no matter what.

thank you for asking so politely

My mother was absolutely insistent my husband contacted my father to ask for my hand, she is not Muslim and she insisted it was about recognising ‘tradition’

islamically it’s not about the passing of ownership for a woman from her father to her husband (as it is in some cultures) It is meant to be about looking out for the woman

I should’ve also said (much like Orthodox Jews) men and women aren’t meant to be alone one on one or interact too much In Islam

Why does a woman need a male guardian?

And why is it okay for a Muslim man to marry outside his religion but not for a Muslim woman?

You seem convinced that things being that way in other religions excuses them being that way in Islam.

Hi, I'm not the OP but in case it's of interest...

I think what headscarves to wear, whether to wear one at all, however someone wants to dress, needs to be a free choice - one of the key principles of Islam is that there should be no compulsion in religion. Just as I should have the freedom to wear a scarf if that's what feels like the right thing for me to do, other people should have the freedom to not wear it if it isn't what feels right to them.

People can be judgey. Just as people sometimes critique each other's hairstyles or clothing choices, sometimes people can be judgey about hijab styles. Those people should get a grip and focus on their own deen before judging someone else's. Personally, my scarves are usually very low maintenance and often being chewed or played with by DC!

I wear what I want to wear, where I want to wear it. I think a misunderstanding is that it's sometimes thought that Muslims "have" to do something or wear something. I choose to wear trousers rather than shorts, longer sleeved tops, because that's what I feel is right for me. My freedom to choose that doesn't impact on other people's freedom to choose differently. I have short-sleeved tops, etc in my wardrobe but for me it would feel 'not me' to wear them without an overshirt or something, like wearing shoes that just don't quite fit.

There are countries where there are legal requirements to wear certain things. My view on that is that it goes against the idea of there being no compulsion, and it shouldn't be accepted. If a choice isn't freely made, it isn't a choice at all. Women should have the right to choose to wear hijab in Paris or jeans in Tehran, or both at the same time if they want, or whatever else a woman feels is the right thing for her to wear.

I struggle with the heat in hot countries (I'm definitely more of a winter person!), but that's not to do with what I wear, I've always been someone who feels the heat. In the UK, summer weather isn't a major issue, it's not that hot really. I don't feel any different, but I suppose if I did, I could choose lighter weight fabrics, etc. I don't think my DH would dream of leaving the house in shorts though - he'd feel too cold!

It is a choice to wear a head covering,

Ok I’ll give an example of something which happened to my German Turkish female friend of mine. Brought up not wearing head coverings but a Muslim none the less. She returned to Turkey with her family every year for a holiday. About 10 years ago she was at the beach or an island there and was dressed in a bikini with her sister. She said that a Muslim man dressed in the traditional way hurled abusive comments about them being dressed immodestly towards them and her family which they all found upsetting. This is a public beach. What on earth gives one more strict Muslim the right to do that?

Indeed.

Finding analogues in Orthodox Judaism, C of E or whatever, is useless as a strategy to persuade when a huge chunk of the population to not follow any religious practices and increasingly see their pernicious nature.

You tell me Orthodox Jewish women cover their heads too. I think “well that’s another example of patriarchal oppression under the guise of religion that sucks, just like its equivalent in Islam”.

no, I’m drawing parallels with different belief systems

re many things, modesty and promxinity to non family member men and food (to an extent) Islam and Orthodox Judaism have a lot in common. That was the point I was trying to make

So what though?

Around 0.2% of the UK population is Orthodox Jewish. Pointing out some similarities just highlights another set of oppressive practices, albeit among a smaller group.

l’ll wager very few people reading this thread with think “oh, well if Orthodox Jews do that too, then it isn’t oppressive in Islam”.

A divorcee or widow doesn’t need a wali we she’s considered that she can advocate for herself. As I’ve mentioned upthread it’s primarily around advocacy and ensuring the rights of the woman are given

it is because Islam has a very heteronormative ‘traditional’ model of the family: the husband is responsible for his family, spiritually and financially. He is expected to the sole financial provider (women can work but they don’t have to contribute to household expenses) so in this model the children follow (in theory) the religion of their father. If the mother was a Jew or Christian she can of course still celebrate traditional holidays and attend her places of worship and her husband must facilitate it but it is the expectation that the children would be raised Muslim

hope that helps explain

You can see it as oppressive that’s ok, I personally don’t that’s also ok.

as I said I’m drawing parallels between our faiths in many areas, ie this isn’t exclusive to Muslims it is seen on other Abrahamic faiths. You don’t have to agree, that’s perfectly fine. You aren’t expected to adhere to these things

very well put

But why can't a woman advocate for herself?Why does she need a man to do it? Or have a woman and her guardian?

The father being in charge and the children following the religion on their father and not mother seems misogynistic to me.

Me too.

She can, for instance a woman who’s has been married before doesn’t need a wali.

I’ve always understood it as erring on the side of caution and to protect the woman if she herself is naive. I don’t think another woman can be a wali (but I’m not 100%)

as I said it is a very traditional and patriarchal understanding of the nuclear family

That’s not what the purpose is, women aren’t viewed as assets to exchange.
part is protection for the woman as I’ve said and part is because men and women Aren’t meant to be spending too much time together for personal purposes.

Thank you so much for answering all my questions so thoroughly - I've learnt a lot.