To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

Didn't Mohammed marry a very young girl?

Did the wives also have several husbands or is it only the bloke who can do this?

Crikey, I knew she was young- but THAT young!

Did the wives also have several husbands or is it only the bloke who can do this?

Only the men. And it's only men who get rewards (houris) in heaven.

Didn't Mohammed marry a very young girl?

He did, yes. But it must be noted that the marriage was not consummated until the girl had reached puberty around the age of 12.

There’s actually some huge debate around her age, it’s now bene revealed that it’s more likely that she was 16 when they were married and 19 when the marriage was consummated.

Nope. She was nine when she was betrothed and 12 when the marriage was consummated. The change of age is a recent invention to make the marriage more palatable for western audiences.

That thread referred to headscarves which are items worn by people of all beliefs etc and many, me included, couldn't see the point of it until it became about Muslim dress. Perhaps those posing questions need to be more specific.

That’s your opinion but there are others who believe the evidence shows 16 and 19.

the Islamic mainstream opinion though is that she was younger, 9 and 12 I think

I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to know that both 2 and 3 are distressing and actually unnatural responses. I’m glad there are some lgbt+ friendly mosques starting in the west, just like many Muslims (I’m sure yourself included) also no longer believe in child marriage.

And that was because of lack of understanding at the time. I assume you’re glad that is no longer acceptable.

I think society is Islamophobic, and the religion of Islam is questioned far more than the teachings of Christianity, Judaism, or another other religion. Of the three Abrahamic religions, Islam is actually the most progressive.

I think it's sad we live in a world where modesty is seen as offensive. People assume the woman has been forced to cover up, when actually it's usually her choice to do so. I have seen threads on here and discussions elsewhere from non-Muslim women who want to wear clothing such as the birkini for comfort reasons, but they are worried about the reaction.

I'm a believer that women should wear whatever they like, but society does encourage women to dress in a more sexy/revealing way for the benefit of men, rather than for the woman herself. It's like society thinks women are only liberated if they are wearing less clothing or something.

I also don't think people can moan about the Burka or hijab after we were forced by the government to wear face masks for months.

The main thing is it needs to be about the person's choice, not forced.

@Whoarethegrownups Patriarchal oppression is an interesting way of phrasing things. So do you feel those who cover less are somehow “free” from, as you put it, “patriarchal oppression”?

From my understanding, it’s not required in certain contexts but yes, if you were out in public, the level of covering can differ according to interpretation. I believe a woman should have the right to choose what they wear and I don’t see how it is patriarchal oppression to cover more or cover less, as long as the person has chosen it. There is such a thing as free will.

I’m confused by the phrase “state sponsored attempts to repress”. Which state? And repress what exactly?

when I was at university I read a fascinating article on polygyny they were arguing it was contextually bound and thus not permissible now. They based it around those verses coinciding with a huge battle early Muslims faced where numbers were decimated (men who were fighting in battle) and as a result there was a huge amount of widows and orphans with no one to protect or provide for them (old civilisation without industry and wealth to have a welfare state) so men were almost encouraged to marry them so they would provide for the widow (now their wife) and her children. And as those specific circumstances don’t exist anymore, neither does the permissibility of more than one wife. They backed this up with the verses that say if you fear you cannot treat them (ie love them and provide them all equally) then you can only take one, there is another verse that says try as you might you’ll never be able to treat them equally. The scholar used this to prove or argue it was impermissible now.

that made sense to me

but incredibly simplistically why can’t women marry more than one husband at once, lineage. Islam is quite big on lineage, a woman with more than one partner, if she fell pregnant wouldn’t know who the father was (pre dna tests)

Of the three Abrahamic religions, Islam is actually the most progressive.

I am sure that the women of Afghanistan would love to hear your argument for this completely untrue statement.

please don’t get a rise out of me and try to imply any doubt that I don’t support child marriage.

of course I dont. A child cannot consent

That’s my opinion also, but I don’t think there is any point arguing it on this thread

I agree. The main thing is about a person’s choice. I think I remember reading a thread on Mumsnet berating Nigella Lawson for wearing a burkini many moons ago. I remember thinking at that time, she chose to cover and people were mocking her for it. It’s almost as though it’s more acceptable for the male gaze to wear a bikini but if a woman decides she’d rather not, somehow something must be wrong.

"Why can men take several wives but women can’t take several husbands?"

I am not Muslim so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this because many men had died in war in the area the time? So there was a large number of women compared to men. In Islamic culture, women are looked after by their male guardian, so many fathers would have had unmarried daughters under their care who needed a new 'provider' ie. Husband.

I assume women can't have multiple husbands because they wouldn't know who is the father of any children.

This part I agree with

It built on pre-existing cultural norms, ie it benefitted me. Plus ca change.

Well there you go!

The teachings of Islam are more progressive than the original teachings of Christianity and Judaism. And is the newest religion of the three.

If so-called Christian countries followed Christianity to the book today, these countries would be very unpleasant places to live in.

The ratio of men to women is not the same. I believe in some countries, such as Hong Kong, there are more women than men so there’s that I suppose.

If a woman was to have multiple partners, it would definitely be difficult to identify who the father is unless she does a paternity test every single time she gives birth so I’m not sure how practical that would be.

From research, I have found that it’s actually discouraged to have 4 wives unless a man can guarantee fairness and equality in terms of what he provides each wife, such as a house, car etc. Each wife can choose to live separately and that can be very expensive for a man to provide and be equal to them all. And as he cannot guarantee that he can be fair, it’s discouraged to do so. Sometimes it was also encouraged at the time to maintain tribal relationships or to protect widows etc.