To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

people have been murdered, beaten to death for being Muslim in the west. There was an old man in Birmingham and a pregnant woman in the paris area (those are the 2 that have sprung to mind) I’m sure there are more

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-anti-semitism-murder-sarah-halimi/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings

Your issue seems to be that some people don’t share your beliefs about the hijab and other Islamic practices. But of course they don’t. If we all shared your views on them we’d convert to Islam too. It can’t be that the only way to avoid being Islamophobic is to actually believe what Muslims believe.

It’s absolutely crucial to free speech that people can criticise the practices and beliefs of a religion (or any other belief system) even if that offends people who believe in those things.

but my knowledge isn’t absolute, flattered as I am, I don’t know everything.

well the Quran references the act of sodomy (like bible) with Lot the idea of orientation isn’t discussed. This has come through scholars after, im not au fait with all the scholarly views. I know that there has been a pretty compelling argument put forward by scholars of the Old Testament that the tale of sodom and Gomorrah refers to the acts of rape rather than being gay. I am not fluent in fus’ha arabic to tell you if that can be directly applied to the Quran, and I’m not a scholar so I don’t know if that argument has been made.

my opinion May well be different from the prevailing mainstream Islam consensus, in fact I’m sure it is.

So sad :(

I don’t expect anyone to believe the same as I do. I believe in freedom of speech but I do think it comes with a responsibility, that our words matter and we should chose them wisely

Exactly what I was trying to express but you put it more succinctly.

I have read the Quran, ive also read Islamic history and I do think that in a lot of ways Muslims are getting it wrong (I put myself in that category too).

i don’t doubt you’ve suffered at the hands of the community or family too, you wouldn’t be the only one. But my personal belief is that the prophet would weep knowing the abuse that happens in many Muslim communities.

fyi I know there are many problematic traditions and view points we need to re examine and more moderate Muslims need to start actively speaking out against but there is still a drive towards conservativism. The hold wahabism has is still strong

sorry for all you’ve been through in the name of religion

I think that obviously some Islamic views are more moderate than others and the criticism that may be artificially labelled as 'Islamophobia' is actually a criticism of the more extreme views on women and homosexual relationships. There are plenty of positives with Islam such as the festival of Eid (which was highlighted in our local ASDA) which need to be promoted.

That depends on the media you follow / seek out / are shown. If your confirmation bias leads you to predominantly left leaning publications you'll not see much, if any, in the way of "attacks" on minority religions or cultures. If they're more right leaning you will. Similarly, if you stray outside of UK / Western narratives you'll get a very different view.

I can assure you the media / populations in Muslim majority countries don't view other relgions particularly positively, I've seen reports / studies that show there is almost universal dislike for Judaism in places like Lebanon, Jordan, Pakistan, and Indonesia, with Christianity not fairing much better.

Hate crimes are a different matter completely, and yes those directed towards Muslims are more common than those directed at other minority religions in the UK, but that is largely because Islam is the largest minority religion in the UK.

To put things into context though there were 109,000+ race related hate crimes recorded in the year ending March 2022. 33% of the victims were white, 30% black, 30% Asian, 4% Middle Eastern, and 3% Chinese, Japanese, or South Asian (those are the ONS ethnicities recorded). There were also 26,000+ sexuality related hate crimes and 8700+ religious related hate crimes, 3459 of which were targeted towards Muslims, so religous based hate crime is the least common hate crime in the UK.

There also doesn't appear to be any data relating to the perpetrator's religion, so it's not possible to make an informed comment as to who is commiting these crimes. While you could probably assume the majority are Christian identifying there's enough tension between Muslims and other religons for this to also factor in (for example Muslim / Hindu tensions can run quite high and spill over).

That doesn't mean the attacks directed at Muslims are in anyway justified, every hate crime is abhorrent, but hate crimes
has specific criteria and criticism of a religion, it tenants, or it's followes does not equate to a hate crime or islamophobia.

But I'm not sure why we're now talking about hate crimes when your initial thrust of this thread was that islamaphobia is prevailant on mumsnet, which it is not.

I’ve not bashed anyone based on their beliefs, called anyone names . I’d say I have chosen them wisely

Sorry don’t understand what you’re saying

If this thread was Islamphobic it would have been pulled by MN. There are clear guidelines for discrimination and abuse which have not been broken. Free speech entitles criticism of religion though not hate speech or discrimination. A debate around religion I think is healthy and you have a number of different views which have been heard. I think it's important not to dismiss those with bad experience with Islam but equally as should highlight positives of different cultures ......

So you can't quote true Islam then, that is before we even bring up pew research...

You are yet again proving my point of the zeal of the convert, you are looking to be oppressed and can't back up your reasoning without resorting to whataboutism re Christianity or 'Not True Islam'.

The real progressives in Islam are not looking outward, they are trying to criticize how a school teacher in Yorkshire has had to go into police protection and be moved away from the area for an RE lesson, they are trying to highlight that women didn't get a vote in reintroducing the Hijab in Afghanistan, that sex ed classes in Birmingham brought a school to stand still, or one I have seen you brush aside that sex before marriage, if you were not a recent convert you would know the non verbalised meaning of this, especially for males....

And one of the main drivers in this is that Islamophobia has become such a watered down topic that you who started the thread can't describe it other than in round about terms but 'criticism'.

You are clearly coming to your faith with enormous privilege and it shows in your answers. You don’t want to talk about legitimate concerns about the way women or minorities are treated. You don’t seem to be able to answer any questions in any depth without immediately pointing at another religion to deflect, you shrug off examples of women and gay people being stoned to death with a “I was only talking about the west” and “that’s not what the Quran says”. It clearly does set out how women should be treated and how they should cover themselves - others have quoted parts of it here. You can’t ignore the problematic ways the faith is interpreted in other countries, including Sharia law, and then claim it’s Islamophobia when other people do want to talk about those facets of the religion. It’s relevant. You can’t just ignore it’s happening.

I absolutely can, the prophets treaty with the Christians, the fact that Umar was honored and called al faruq by the Jews of the time as he gave them their rights again and allowed them back into the temple at the mount, the rights that Islam gave to women at the time were unprecedented, the first university was founded by a Muslim woman, the true essence of a Muslim state is a robust welfare state, there is no compulsion in religion, the Ayat that speak about believing people of the book being admitted to heaven.

i consider myself progressive.

all sex education classes In Birmingham have been brought to a stand still?

yes I don’t know what you’re getting out with sex outside of marriage for males? Might it be that men typically get away with it but it would be a far greater shame (in the sense of honour and shame) that a woman was caught or known to have had sex outside of marriage?

perhaps I should’ve said anti Muslim sentiment or negative feelings towards islam and Muslims instead, that might be more apt

No? I don’t think anyone should be mocked or demeaned or belittled because of their sexual preferences or relationship.

Is it ok in your mind for them to freely pursue same sex relationships? Not just to not be mocked for it (that’s a very low bar) but to be treated and viewed the same as a heterosexual couple?

Yes I’m privileged by a being white and by living in the west.

i can talk about those things and condemn them, and we should talk about how they are twisted in other countries to suit sick agendas. It is relevant but I’m not a scholar.

when you say shariah law I’m guessing you mean hudud or corporal punishment? Which shouldn’t be in place in a country that’s not a perfect Islamic state (ie each citizen has their rights, and there is no poverty, hunger etc) even then I see hadd punishments as very much as of a certain time, a society with no infrastructure. Historically the amount of times hadd punishments were handed out prior to saudi being formed was in the single digits. Judges always found an alternative. It is relevant but I’m not an expert I’m just a layperson

You’re asking for my personal opinion?

if so then, love is love right. No one should be abused because of who they love. I fully supported (and continue to do so) gay marriage. I know there are those who oppose it in the muslim community, im not one of them