To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

There are sects of Christianity and Judaism that are supporting gay relationships including gay marriage. I know this for a fact. Islam doesn’t seem to be addressing this, for example.

^^ - "there are sects" - exactly, sects. The majority of the religion steers towards still being anti-gay - OP can't really speak for the whole of all Islamic believers everywhere because she may not be amongst, or even have come across these more progressive 'sects' of Islam. She can however be aware that she shares a mainstream widespread view that's the most commonly held interpretation of scriptures used for the subject.

I think I'm right in saying that today England and Wales are now the least religious countries in the world. About 37% of the population ticked 'no religious beliefs ' on the last census. More people are confident in challenging religious beliefs, pointing out the hypocrisy of them, and the ridiculous manner of many of the rules. I would say many of the same comments to other religions. I've no time for people who use religion to control people ( so most of them), neither do I understand why being gay is so sinful if we are told that we are all made in god's image. I can think of lots of things in various religions that annoy me. I don't consider it to be Islamophobia to criticize that religion. I criticise them all.

But we aren’t talking about the Middle East, we’re talking about the west.

because then I could say well children have been tortured to death in some African Christian countries for witch craft and it becomes a race to the bottom

You absolutely can! And we must as Muslims. We must stand strong that when countries use our religion as a means of oppressing minorities we have to say, this isn’t what we believe, this isn’t what our faith teaches, those regimes are perverting it for their own means, just like isis did, but in a more insidious way.

it’s that distinction between what Islam teaches at its core and what Muslims do, and often they are diametrically opposed.

Kristy Bamu, Victoria Climbie to name just two children who have lost their lives being accused of withcraft in the UK

le sigh

Oh how convenient. YOU were talking about Muslims being here, so I pointed out they are also being murdered in the ME, not for being muslim, but for being gay or women.

@Lesschubtolove

If you do not have faith schooling and just secular from your previous posts perhaps you can see that you will be mixing children with possibly quite different cultural attitudes and personally I can't see how there won't be a diffusion of ideas between the groups. We are all influenced by our peers so do you feel going Muslims should be exempt from these influences? Typically in a class Muslims will talk to non Muslims of either sex and form friendships (if not romantic relationships); it will also be possible that societal interaction might change attitudes.

If girls in a peer group start talking about Love Island do Muslim girls automatically remove themselves from the conversation for instance. With SM the spread of western ideas and value sets will be widespread. I just wonder if this is leaving a generation of Muslims in the UK confused about their identity wondering to what extent they can integrate into a majority secular culture?

the preservation of beliefs in the way you describe to some extent suggests an isolation from certain aspects of society which could lead to a perception of 'othering' which doesn't assist in community undsrstanding.

PHSE may suggest a value set that is different from a devout Islamic viewpoint so again young Muslims are being torn between different cultures. Could it be that the immersion of the Islamic community in a secular space in terms of media and culture leads to a defensive attitude that makes Muslims feel threatened?

No, wearing hijab is like wearing a sign declaring that you don't welcome sexual advances by men. It's there to make life easier for women, so they can study and work and participate in society without being subject to male gaze.

I wore hijab for ten years, but unfortunately the way I was randomly harassed and twice attacked for walking along a street wearing it, made it safer and less noticeable for me not to.

so in terms of an identity crisis, I can imagine that being the case for people who have grown up in a very conservative family, where perhaps parents don’t speak English and then go to school and are exposed to the things you’ve suggested. I can’t relate to that as I grew up in a moderately conservative Christian family. So boyfriends would’ve been ok, to kiss yes but sex outside of marriage big no no, my mother didn’t want me in sex Ed either for instance.

i think marrying people of the same faith doesn’t necessarily lead to isolation, not interacting with people of a other faith or even cultural background does!

You keep conflating criticism or even mockery of Islam with attacks on Muslims. While the latter is downright despicable, there is nothing wrong with the former.

Islam is an idea/ideology. No different to many other ideologies. And just as it's fine to critise and mock veganism, capitalism, anti-vax and any other idea, it's perfectly fine to mock Islam and Muhammed.

What is abhorrent is attacks on innocent Muslims, as everyone has the right to practice their religion or ideologies. But that is not the same is criticising the religion itself.

So prevailing opinion is that gay people should either never be in a relationship even if they want to or marry someone they will never love or be attracted to. A lifetime of loneliness or unhappiness. Nice.

We were talking about prejudice in the west and hate crimes in the west. Ergo Middle East and Africa don’t form a direct comparison

I think there are positives in any religion in terms of community engagement, charity, hope for an afterlife and personal meaning in life and Islam contains all these. I think religions are all aligning their values to that of a dominant secular society (some more quickly than others) though this is a slow process. The sex and sexuality discrimination sewn into religion due to their age will eventually face as I think religions need to modernise to keep relevant.

Well I think a lot of Muslims would perceive an attack on Islam and an attack on our prophet as an attack on us (not physical in this context of course) as it is something we hold very very dear

Well I wasn't talking about that. Then again, I'm not putting any religion on a pedestal and mistaking critique for discrimination.

That’s why I said you should ask someone more knowledgeable than myself and why I have highlighted that it is not just Islam that has these views

Critique is fine, and discussion is fine IF you’re open to hearing the other side or the rationale or how things have been interpreted historically but this seldom seems to be the case

You're the one who started the thread, surely you should know the position of the religion that you follow? Which is therefore presumably your position, since its what your God says?

And what other religions say is irrelevant, this thread isn't about other religions.

Lesschubtolove, where do you stand on freedom of speech? I am a vegan and we as individuals, and as a general movement, are mocked all the time. But that's ok! Freedom of speech, in my opinion, is very important.

OP I think you are being a bit unrealistic here. Many things in the recent past have been done supposedly in the name of Islam - ISIS, Iran, Afghanistan. People will associate those events with Islam even if the actions represent an inaccurate or extreme interpretation of the religion.

There is undoubted Islamophobia from some people but there is also a more general distrust of organised religion in this country. If you compare US and U.K. politicians you see a major difference in the level of overt religious expression.

As a Christian who has been married to a practicing Muslim (who came to the U.K. as an immigrant)for over 20 years I found your comments on mixed marriages interesting. Fortunately DH’s family in North Africa didn’t have the same view.

I think the question of the hijab is a nuanced one. Should women be subject to significantly different modesty rules than men? How much of the clothing is cultural rather than religious? To suggest that Muslim women are always forced to wear the hijab would be to deny them agency but in some cultures there is a strong social pressure to conform. (I have covered my hair in DH’s country where it might have caused social difficulties for his family for example).

DH and I have found it is a two way process. Muslim communities can’t stand apart from wider society and wider society has to question its stereotypes.

Well tough. The same could be said about vegans, conservatives or trans allies. People feel connected to their beliefs. But it's still acceptable to mock those beliefs.
The advantage of living in a free society is you're free to believe in whatever you want and preach those beliefs to whoever will listen. The flipside is that other people are free to disagree and even mock those beliefs.

@Lesschubtolove

Therein lies the rub...presumably a lot of Muslims are conservative or how else do you define the parameters of your belief and lifestyle? I do think that conservative religion of any sort is tested in a school environment and I wonder how many people of faith of any kind do have reservations about secular schooling and it's influence on their children?

The failure of our a local council to allow the building of an Islamic city school was roundly denounced by the Islamic community and in my opinion has led not to tension but a disconnect within schooling communites. Children mix together and talk about common interests, sport, music, the opposite sex, television etc. and it is unrealistic to expect children not to grow and develop through these relationships.

Great comeback and only proves my point, I am an ex muslim immigrant and I can give you real tales of oppression from my family as whole and from the muslim community because I denounced.

The rebuttal of 'not true islam' is a typical example of a recent convert who lives in a secular society pretending that a 1300 year old religion adheres to 21st century progressive ideals and brushing criticism aside.

Re read the Quran and three surahs in and you'll catch yourself thinking, "oh, this is why Isis!" at least 12 times. And then there's that "lovely" fourth The Women.

As I said, Zeal of the Convert...