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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Another person killed by one of these dogs

245 replies

Schooldinners1 · 03/06/2023 19:11

When will people stop getting these dogs?

There have been so many stories of it going horribly wrong. I don’t know what people are thinking! Especially with vulnerable people in the property like kids and elderly people.

There are hundreds of dogs out there! Why choose to get these dogs that have a history of being unstable.

Its awful!

ARTICLE

Savage dog mauls elderly woman to death: Cops arrest man and woman

The horror savaging happened while the woman in her 70s was lying on a sun lounger at home in Bedworth, Warwickshire, at 3.50pm on Friday.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12155105/Woman-Pensioner-Mauled-Death-Control-Banned-Breed-Dog-Bedworth-Warwickshire.html

OP posts:
Felicia00 · 04/06/2023 23:10

The breeders of these dogs should be thrown in jail. They are deliberately breeding to ensure the dogs get larger and more muscle as the lines go on. A youtuber said the problem is many of these dogs are pushing 60kg. They are really hard to handle and they have the potential to kill other dogs and humans. Dogs are pack animals its going to struggle to see a weedy person as alpha. The only people who can effectively manage these dogs have to have Tyson fury height and physique with a dog whisperer level of skill.

They should be banned and they never should have been created. I feel sorry for the poor things human greed.

Owlyhedgehog · 04/06/2023 23:11

Been reading the thread and following the news and I am concerned by my best friends next door neighbours dog. They are from poland I think brought it over with them. Its a big grey dog and has had its ears clipped. Ive told BF I think it could be a banned dog, she isnt overly worried.
She has told me how last summer it kept head butting her fence. I dont know, just doesnt sit right with me

OutIander · 04/06/2023 23:14

WiddlinDiddlin · 04/06/2023 22:28

Short term yes, but long term we'll see the same idiots currently buying XL bullies, pit types etc, move to different breeds. That move is already happening.

Nothing is addressing peoples desire to own intimidating dogs with poor temperaments, shitty training, handling and housing that leads to out of control and aggressive behaviour.

There is zero going into educating people about dogs, controlling breeding, controlling importation (in fact the Kept Animals Bill that would stop people importing dogs who've had their ears cut off to make them look 'hard', all breeds used by people who want intimidating, scary dogs to train to bite people, has been dropped by the current government in the last fortnight!).

Nothing is being put into policing the current legislation we have either!

So the law that says all dogs should be microchipped at 8 weeks by the breeder - not enforced, not policed.

The law that stated all dogs sold by a third party should be traceable to their breeder - not enforced, on a day to day basis, never was.

The law that states dogs should not be sold by a third party (replaced the above) - rarely enforced except in high profile cases of illegally imported puppies).

The law that states puppies should be over 8 weeks old prior to sale - not enforced. I have talked to FOUR people THIS WEEK, who have bought puppies aged 4 to 7 weeks old. All from commercial puppy farms I am sure.

The law that says you can't cause unnecessary suffering to an animal - rarely enforced in terms of dog training. You can shock a dog, use a prong collar on a dog, yank it off its feet by its throat with a thin 'cheesewire' choke line causing it to yelp in pain but despite this being unnecessary (studies prove that aversive methods increase chances of aggression and cause pain) and it causes suffering (ditto), certain 'trainers' get away with this all the time and owners do too.

We increased the sentencing for animal welfare related crimes - but longer sentences are rarely given.

Animal ownership bans - not enforced and very easy loopholes in many cases (you can't own a dog.. however your wife/son/daughter/brother can... oh, they live with you, oh well!).

Policing and enforcing these laws comes down to local authorities who have nothing left in the budget, the police, ditto, and neither party have the relevant training or experience. And to dog warden companies who in many cases, are spread too thin, doing a shite job of it without appropriate training. I am aware of one company that covers multiple LA's, who NEVER sends their wardens on any CPD courses, they have no experience beyond a 2 day 'heres how to catch pole a dog and chuck it in a van' course, and a 'what might be an illegal breed call a DLO to check' seminar.

We (trainers, behaviourists, rescue staff and volunteers) said over 20 years ago that banning pitbulls and their types would NOT reduce deaths, that those who cause such tragedies will continue to do as they please, continue to breed dangerous animals and would seek bigger, stronger, scarier animals to do so.

We also said at the start of the pandemic that stopping access to dog training, to vets, and the massive rise in breeding anything canine, plus the social media 'dog training alpha males' ... would cause some significant problems wrt dangerous dogs in 2 - 4 years time.

Welcome to 'we told you so'.

We (trainers, behaviourists, rescue staff and volunteers) said over 20 years ago that banning pitbulls and their types would NOT reduce deaths, that those who cause such tragedies will continue to do as they please, continue to breed dangerous animals and would seek bigger, stronger, scarier animals to do so.

Of course banning those breeds will work. It just needs to be enforced. As fit breeding variations, we just ban those too. Anyone caught breeding them gets a couple of years in prison. You are part of the problem.

OutIander · 04/06/2023 23:15

Mollyplop999 · 04/06/2023 20:50

I was walking my daughters very small dog today. A couple were coming towards me with a GSD that was straining on it's harness. I picked up my dog and as they passed me, the GSD lunged and bit my arm. They never apologised or asked if I was OK. It broke the skin on my arm. Their response was that it was a rescue dog! So why wasn't it muzzled??

I'm so sorry you experienced that.
Please report it to the police.

WiddlinDiddlin · 05/06/2023 04:20

OutIander · 04/06/2023 23:14

We (trainers, behaviourists, rescue staff and volunteers) said over 20 years ago that banning pitbulls and their types would NOT reduce deaths, that those who cause such tragedies will continue to do as they please, continue to breed dangerous animals and would seek bigger, stronger, scarier animals to do so.

Of course banning those breeds will work. It just needs to be enforced. As fit breeding variations, we just ban those too. Anyone caught breeding them gets a couple of years in prison. You are part of the problem.

But we banned pitbulls and their 'types' in 1997.

If it worked to stop dog attacks on people causing severe injuries and fatalities then this thread would not exist.

What is your evidence for 'it worked' and if the answer is 'the majority of the latest attacks are not by pitbull 'types'' then your definition of 'it worked' is very skewed.

We have more pitbull types, even on the exempt dog register, never mind the unregistered ones being bred every day, than we had when the original ban was put in place. The dogs hitting the news now are a derivation of that type.

So it didn't work to remove pitbull types.

It didn't work to remove muscley scary dogs owned by thugs.

It did not work to reduce deaths/attacks on people.

Tell me again how it worked?

I want people not attacked or killed by dogs. Any dogs.

It really makes no odds to the deceased, injured or their families what breed did it.

WiddlinDiddlin · 05/06/2023 04:29

And no, no I really am as far away from 'part of the problem' as its possible to get. I spend over 40 hours a week educating people on how to raise a puppy, how to reliably source a puppy, how to select the right breed, how to train dogs...

Personally, I don't actually give a shit if we had no bull breeds at all - I don't own them, and whilst I have enjoyed working with other peoples (because to train they are a delight, eager to please, super easy to reward, very sensitive in many respects which, added up is part of what makes them dangerous), it would make absolutely zero difference to my life if they did not exist here, or indeed anywhere at all.

My point is, as it has been since I got involved in the Liverpool pitbull amnesty way back when Bernard Hogan-Howe enacted a mass slaughter of mostly completely innocent dogs - it won't fix the problem.

The problem of thuggish, stupid, moronic humans who do stupid things with dogs they have no business owning and put other people (often their own families) at risk.

It'll happen though, we'll get a ban, short sighted idiots who think they know what they're talking about but in fact have zero clue of the complexity of the issue will be overjoyed, as they were in 1991 (oops realised i got the date wrong in the previous post, 97 was when the act was amended to permit dogs added to an exempt register).

And then in a few short years, possibly less, it will be another breed/type and round we'll go again.

Wildflowersinthemeadow · 05/06/2023 04:58

We may have banned them -@WiddlinDiddlin but as you identify,
if the law is not enforced it is pointless.

A law being passed doesn’t mean everyone is going to adhere to that law. Some people will drive drunk, they will lash out and punch people they don’t like, they will deal drugs. I can’t think of any other type of harmful behaviour that is tolerated with ‘well it won’t prevent people doing it so it is pointless.’

And, how would you go about educating the public? I don’t mean that snidely, I am genuinely asking. I don’t really want to be educated on XL Bullies, or bull breeds generally.

I mean, you say ‘banning pit bulls does not work.’ Well, OK, except they are banned in thirty countries, it isn’t the uk being a bit daft and hysterical. I actually think we’re being far too lackadaisical about it, and I suspect that there is a class aspect to that. If Middle England had to live amongst them, I think the law would suddenly be enforced more strongly but as it is, it is the rundown areas which are already entangled in social problems and (the attitude is) let the chavs chav, if one is killed then well, that’s a sort of justice at play, as if being poor and thick is such a heinous crime that being torn apart alive (or having that done to your child) is natural justice. It’s a really nasty attitude, I hate it.

If someone had pushed for the law to be tightened after Jack Lis’ death in November 2021, that’s potentially twelve lives saved. I know we have anomalies, and I know we have people who ignore the law, but seriously, since when was ‘oh, some people will ignore the law’ a reason for not actually having the law in the first place!?

WiddlinDiddlin · 05/06/2023 05:19

No country as far as I am aware, that has banned pitbulls in the way we have, has had a success in reducing deaths by dog attacks. Many countries have scrapped breed specific legislation of that type (but it is a long way past my bedtime for that data!).

Tightening the laws before Jack Lis... would not have changed those outcomes, we would not have enacted a ban and got rid of existing dogs in that time frame, even without the pandemic.

We need to really look at what drives people to buy such dogs, to stop people keeping dogs (any dogs) in unsuitable conditions. To stop people training dogs with methods that are harmful and to do things that are dangerous.

We need to enforce legislation we already have.

All of that costs money, and require a government with a will to do it and an understanding that it is a complex issue that goes way beyond the scope of any one consultation group, approach, idea.

Education - teaching children before they turn into vulnerable young adults living in scary council flats, who buy cheap bullbreed mixes to feel safe and less alone, because a cheap to feed, hardy, loving best friend who can't be taken from you like a knife would... is extremely appealing.

Teaching kids not to approach dogs, to tell parents 'so and so has a dog' before going to their home, teaching them that dogs are sentient beings with big teeth, that need care and attention - worked into PSE, biology, geography, history... covering topics like genetics, how fear and anxiety can be bred in, how learned experience can be passed genetically. Tons of scope there to work dog safety and general knowledge in, that would help inform the next generation of potential dog owners, and this generation of potential dog victims.

Funding programs like the Dogs Trust education outreach scheme.

Properly licencing breeders - not as we currently do, from a commercial standpoint, but all breeders - and holding breeders potentially liable for their 'product' for the life of that product. Punish those producing mentally and physically unhealthy dogs.

Regulating the dog training industry so AlphaTwatMan cannot sell his incel clients a course on 'how to teach your dog to rip someones arms off'. So that knuckle dragging hard-men cannot shock and zap and garotte a dog into suppressing behaviour and storing up fear and aggression. Enforcing the animal welfare act to help police this.

Improve the lives of people who as a result of low income, life on benefits, shit education, shit childhood - feel they need to protect themselves from threat by owning a scary dog (what threat you ask, believe me when I say some peoples lives are permanently on a knife edge, expecting attack and confrontation at every turn. The less they understand, the poorer communication skills, the higher the poverty, the higher the crime rate in their area, their street, their family... the scarier life is!).

Regulate dog rescue - stop shipping in dogs from overseas for ridiculous transportation fees and no back up, no safety net for these dogs, who are purchased sight unseen from photos on the internet then dumped with owners totally not equipped to cope.

Ban the importation of dogs with their ears cut off to look scary, imported by the above AlphaTwatMan companies who train them to be at the same time a family pet, and a lethal weapon. (Seriously, no one else is importing cropped dogs but this lot!).

It's pie in the fucking sky though, it will never happen because it takes too long, takes too much money, reshuffling things, enforcing things... and it doesn't instantly LOOK (as the barrage of 'why the fuck should my child learn about dogs at school' comments that follow this will prove) like a solution to the issue that banning breeds appears to be.

Wildflowersinthemeadow · 05/06/2023 05:51

We need to enforce legislation we already have - I completely agree and I am not sure then why the rest of your post seems to be so adamant that further legislation won’t work.

Laws have to be added to and adjusted and adapted over time. It became illegal to use a mobile phone when driving in 2003 for obvious reasons. We can’t ban a breed that hasn’t yet been created! It doesn’t mean we should sit back and say ‘ah well they’ll just create another one.’

Your education ideas are commendable and would result in a better society to be sure but I’m not sure that it is the answer, certainly not in the short term. I can’t think of one case where a child approached a strange dog and was fatally killed. The only one was Jack Lis and it wasn’t a strange dog, it belonged to a friend who encouraged him to pet it. I don’t think that falls into the category you state above and to be honest I don’t think approaching a strange dog should mean that death is a possibility anyway. Most child deaths from dogs have been where the dog is in the household in some capacity.

Nothing is watertight. We will never prevent occasional tragic accident, but I do think you are ignoring the fact that we have had an absolutely enormous upsurge in fatal dog attacks of late and seem to be taking a ‘well we’ll never stop them altogether, so …’ viewpoint which I have to admit is hard for me to comprehend. Back in 1991, we banned pit bulls. I accept that this did not prevent people being killed by dogs.

However, between 1991 and 2021, so thirty years, we see forty four deaths, and twelve of those were of non mobile babies, five of the adult deaths seem to be following epileptic seizures which I am guessing seems to provoke something in the dog, a perceived threat from jerking limbs, you probably know more than me? Quite a lot of the others are children in the 5 - 10 sort of age range, not attacked because they approach a random dog but attacked by a dog belonging to someone in the family, usually a parent. So average of one and a half deaths per year.

Of course, it is not as simple as that. There were no deaths at all in 2011, but then in both 2013 and 2016 there were five each. Five is the highest though.

Then that changes pretty dramatically from 2021. Nineteen from 2021 - present. That’s a huge jump. It has moved from the occasional to regular, albeit rare.

Four in 2021 (two in November and December respectively.)

Ten in 2022

And so far five in 2023.

Yes, we do need to improve people’s lives, but a massive life improvement for many would simply being allowed to go about their daily business without peoples dogs having the ability to kill and do serious harm.

AMonthOfSundaes · 05/06/2023 06:17

The breeders of these dogs should be thrown in jail.

They are already in jail.

One of the (many) issues is that a large number of these dogs are being bred as a way to launder money, by criminals and criminal gangs. When it's possible to breed these dogs even from prison - through illegal mobile phones and people on the outside willing to house the mum and puppies.

The resulting dogs really don't stand a chance at being born healthy and growing up stable.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64346415.amp

Morph22010 · 05/06/2023 06:44

TooJoy · 03/06/2023 23:06

There was a thread a few months ago about things that happened in your childhood and lots of posters said that their parents would let their dog out to roam around all day and it wouldn’t come back until the evening.

It was a great thread but I always think about the dogs roaming around and there would have been lots of children unsupervised too but there didn’t seem to be lots of dog attacks.

So either there was a similar amount but it wasn’t reported as they didn’t have the internet and social media back then or it’s because there’s too many dogs nowadays.

I’m in my 40s and I remember a spate of dog attacks by Rottweilers when I was a child, I think it led to the introduction of the dangerous dogs act or some sort of dog control at least

marapournumber4 · 05/06/2023 09:02

Just out of interest ( not in UK) do you have to have your dogs microchipped. Can't be sold without a microchip. I guess if you ignore it then you could still sell it, but if it's found on the streets with no microchip it goes straight to the pound, hoping that someone else will take it. If it has a microchip it goes straight back to the owner.

OutIander · 05/06/2023 10:31

WiddlinDiddlin · 05/06/2023 04:20

But we banned pitbulls and their 'types' in 1997.

If it worked to stop dog attacks on people causing severe injuries and fatalities then this thread would not exist.

What is your evidence for 'it worked' and if the answer is 'the majority of the latest attacks are not by pitbull 'types'' then your definition of 'it worked' is very skewed.

We have more pitbull types, even on the exempt dog register, never mind the unregistered ones being bred every day, than we had when the original ban was put in place. The dogs hitting the news now are a derivation of that type.

So it didn't work to remove pitbull types.

It didn't work to remove muscley scary dogs owned by thugs.

It did not work to reduce deaths/attacks on people.

Tell me again how it worked?

I want people not attacked or killed by dogs. Any dogs.

It really makes no odds to the deceased, injured or their families what breed did it.

They were banned on paper only. Nothing much was done to actually uphold the law.

OutIander · 05/06/2023 10:35

WiddlinDiddlin · 05/06/2023 05:19

No country as far as I am aware, that has banned pitbulls in the way we have, has had a success in reducing deaths by dog attacks. Many countries have scrapped breed specific legislation of that type (but it is a long way past my bedtime for that data!).

Tightening the laws before Jack Lis... would not have changed those outcomes, we would not have enacted a ban and got rid of existing dogs in that time frame, even without the pandemic.

We need to really look at what drives people to buy such dogs, to stop people keeping dogs (any dogs) in unsuitable conditions. To stop people training dogs with methods that are harmful and to do things that are dangerous.

We need to enforce legislation we already have.

All of that costs money, and require a government with a will to do it and an understanding that it is a complex issue that goes way beyond the scope of any one consultation group, approach, idea.

Education - teaching children before they turn into vulnerable young adults living in scary council flats, who buy cheap bullbreed mixes to feel safe and less alone, because a cheap to feed, hardy, loving best friend who can't be taken from you like a knife would... is extremely appealing.

Teaching kids not to approach dogs, to tell parents 'so and so has a dog' before going to their home, teaching them that dogs are sentient beings with big teeth, that need care and attention - worked into PSE, biology, geography, history... covering topics like genetics, how fear and anxiety can be bred in, how learned experience can be passed genetically. Tons of scope there to work dog safety and general knowledge in, that would help inform the next generation of potential dog owners, and this generation of potential dog victims.

Funding programs like the Dogs Trust education outreach scheme.

Properly licencing breeders - not as we currently do, from a commercial standpoint, but all breeders - and holding breeders potentially liable for their 'product' for the life of that product. Punish those producing mentally and physically unhealthy dogs.

Regulating the dog training industry so AlphaTwatMan cannot sell his incel clients a course on 'how to teach your dog to rip someones arms off'. So that knuckle dragging hard-men cannot shock and zap and garotte a dog into suppressing behaviour and storing up fear and aggression. Enforcing the animal welfare act to help police this.

Improve the lives of people who as a result of low income, life on benefits, shit education, shit childhood - feel they need to protect themselves from threat by owning a scary dog (what threat you ask, believe me when I say some peoples lives are permanently on a knife edge, expecting attack and confrontation at every turn. The less they understand, the poorer communication skills, the higher the poverty, the higher the crime rate in their area, their street, their family... the scarier life is!).

Regulate dog rescue - stop shipping in dogs from overseas for ridiculous transportation fees and no back up, no safety net for these dogs, who are purchased sight unseen from photos on the internet then dumped with owners totally not equipped to cope.

Ban the importation of dogs with their ears cut off to look scary, imported by the above AlphaTwatMan companies who train them to be at the same time a family pet, and a lethal weapon. (Seriously, no one else is importing cropped dogs but this lot!).

It's pie in the fucking sky though, it will never happen because it takes too long, takes too much money, reshuffling things, enforcing things... and it doesn't instantly LOOK (as the barrage of 'why the fuck should my child learn about dogs at school' comments that follow this will prove) like a solution to the issue that banning breeds appears to be.

You really are the problem if these are your solutions. Pitbulls and their ilk attack our of nowhere. Watch the videos. They are out of control vile beasts and no amount of human training will save innocent people. They need to be totally wiped off the face of the earth. It really is simple. Them and rottweilers, huskies, Akitas, etc. No need for any of those breeds.

LlynTegid · 05/06/2023 10:41

@Schooldinners1 you only need to have a licence for some breeds of dog in my opinion. The suggestions you make about who is a fit and proper person to have one are valid though.

If you had dog licencing for all dogs it would be difficult to enforce, and no doubt the government would give a contract to one of their mates to run the scheme.

Wildflowersinthemeadow · 05/06/2023 10:45

A dog licence isn’t really going to help if a dog goes for you though. I understand people want a sort of accountability- this is your dog, you are responsible for it, but you can’t be, because some dogs are stronger than we are and if they turn, we can’t stop them. So let’s not HAVE them!

TallulahBetty · 05/06/2023 11:03

Bring back dog licences for all dogs, and add all of these disgusting breeds mentioned upthread to the banned breeds list. Eradicate them. They have NO redeeming features, don't give me all this 'owner not the breed' nonsense. GET RID OF THEM

Tomatina · 05/06/2023 11:07

Just an idea...
Before you can drive a car (potential killing machine) you have to pass a pretty rigorous theory and practical exam, after many lessons.

Why not make it mandatory for anyone to pass an equally rigorous training course before they can own a dog (also a potential killing machine) of ANY breed? The course should cover animal welfare, control, breed-specific knowledge, practical behaviour training with other dogs, etc. Fail the course? No dog. Failure to show certificate/licence on request? No dog. Previous conviction for animal abuse/neglect? No dog.

Obviously this is not exactly an instant solution because I don't see how it could be applied retrospectively to existing owners, but if it prevented future deaths/maulings then surely it would be worthwhile. Also might send out a message that owning a dog is a huge responsibility, not a lifestyle whim.

Thelnebriati · 05/06/2023 11:12

What WiddlinDiddlin is saying is that the law not being enforced isn't the problem.
Its the desire to own any a dog for the purposes of intimidation that is the problem. If its not bull breeds it will be another type of dog. If chihuahuas were causing deaths, there's a group of people who would rush straight out and buy a chihuahua.
Breed bans can't fix this underlying problem. We need another approach altogether.

Thelnebriati · 05/06/2023 11:15

I can't find a link but a few decades ago Belgium passed a law to say that if you wanted to take your dog into a city centre, you had to train it to a certain certified standard.
One problem with this is you need to stop the inevitable rush of self styled dog trainers who will cash in on this kind of scheme.
But introducing behavioural/training certificates for specific situations and then widening their scope would be a start.

OutIander · 05/06/2023 11:47

Thelnebriati · 05/06/2023 11:12

What WiddlinDiddlin is saying is that the law not being enforced isn't the problem.
Its the desire to own any a dog for the purposes of intimidation that is the problem. If its not bull breeds it will be another type of dog. If chihuahuas were causing deaths, there's a group of people who would rush straight out and buy a chihuahua.
Breed bans can't fix this underlying problem. We need another approach altogether.

We just keep banning those breeds, keep on at it. Repeat offenders get jail time.

CrossBun · 05/06/2023 12:04

I heard a woman on LBC radio this morning from a charity saying that they are getting a lot of calls from distressed people about Bully XLs something like 20 a week (or was it a day?). She was saying the typical call is from someone who has got their new XL home and it’s started growling at their children and they’re scared and don’t k or what to do.

So the charity has to arrange to collect the dog. Also vets who are being asked to put them down but scared to go bear them.

megletthesecond · 05/06/2023 12:08

I saw a horrible XL bully being 'walked' by a 6ft bloke who looked like he went to the gym too many muscles type idiot and even he couldn't control it when it lunged. The only time I've been scared by a dog and had something in my hand in case it came towards me.

RightWhereYouLeftMe · 05/06/2023 12:25

megletthesecond · 05/06/2023 12:08

I saw a horrible XL bully being 'walked' by a 6ft bloke who looked like he went to the gym too many muscles type idiot and even he couldn't control it when it lunged. The only time I've been scared by a dog and had something in my hand in case it came towards me.

I always wonder why people would think these dogs make them look tough. Being dragged along by your dog that you can't control makes you look anything but tough.

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