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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Another person killed by one of these dogs

245 replies

Schooldinners1 · 03/06/2023 19:11

When will people stop getting these dogs?

There have been so many stories of it going horribly wrong. I don’t know what people are thinking! Especially with vulnerable people in the property like kids and elderly people.

There are hundreds of dogs out there! Why choose to get these dogs that have a history of being unstable.

Its awful!

ARTICLE

Savage dog mauls elderly woman to death: Cops arrest man and woman

The horror savaging happened while the woman in her 70s was lying on a sun lounger at home in Bedworth, Warwickshire, at 3.50pm on Friday.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12155105/Woman-Pensioner-Mauled-Death-Control-Banned-Breed-Dog-Bedworth-Warwickshire.html

OP posts:
SmartHome · 07/06/2023 00:49

I will never, ever understand why people get these pits and pit type dogs. They are capable of killing an adult human, and, apart from that, they are really, really unattractive. I think they should all be banned and the bull breeds encouraged to die out.

Catsmere · 07/06/2023 02:09

IDontWantToBeAPie · 07/06/2023 00:40

I just don't see what's wrong with a nice lab, retriever, beagle, boxer, spaniel. All good, solid, generally non violent breeds.

Yes, it says a great deal (none of it good) about people who want to own dogs bred specifically for killing other dogs and quite capable of killing humans.

megletthesecond · 07/06/2023 09:04

Idont the agreesive thickos don't want a nice dog. They want one that scares people. (I live in a horrible estate with people like this).

megletthesecond · 07/06/2023 09:05

*aggressive. Bring back blackberries that I can actually type quickly on....

SidekickSylvia · 07/06/2023 09:46

Widdlin, You say that banning breeds doesn't work, and you're evidence is that deaths recorded has increased since pit bulls were banned, but none of us know whether there would have been far more deaths if the pit bull hadn't been banned. There's no way of knowing, but my guess would be that there would be more deaths if there had been no ban.

You also say that there are always signs before a dog attacks, well I would recognise those signs in an average dog, but most of us wouldn't recognise them in a dog that has been bred to attack. That's one of the reasons they're so successful.

I don't know how anybody could look at those statistics, 55 out of 63 deaths caused by bull type dogs in 30 years and say 'It's not the breed'. They're just massive pit bulls, and it's ridiculous that they're not banned.

Ponoka7 · 07/06/2023 09:57

Schooldinners1 · 04/06/2023 14:55

I think introducing a license to own a dog will be the best thing. And owners have to fit a certain criteria before ownership is possible for example above 18, never been in prison, has some for of employment and maybe character references from respected people in the community.

Or is that too much? 🤨🧐

So as a widowed mother, unemployed because I was my husband's carer, I wouldn't have been able to adopt my GS, yes that's too far. It's indirect discrimination, because it would count out a lot of disabled people. Lots of other groups wouldn't fit that criteria either. Dangerous drivers and the pathetic sentences are my bug bare, you'll notice how the middle class parent who kills their child, by running them over in their driveway never gets charged. Likewise the hunts etc don't face charges. The courts are reluctant to jail bereaved parents, but that is the answer. We are considered out of order because my GC aren't allowed in a relatives house who has a XL bulky/corso cross, apparently their five year old can climb on her and pull it's tail without even a growl. They didn't understand why that didn't fill us with confidence. There's a lot of women who are frightened of male relatives and partners who are bullied into having these breeds in the house. A lot of the people who have these dogs would be considered vulnerable under the law, so no hearty fines etc.

Ponoka7 · 07/06/2023 10:29

@OutIander so globally you think that huskies and other breeds don't have to exist? You get to dictate what someone living in Africa, Alaska and rurally in the US/Canada gets to have as a pet?

LimeLimeLime · 09/06/2023 02:44

Pitbulls are not like other dogs, because they have been breed specifically to fight. This means they attack without warning (vocal or body language) and hold and shake their victim:

"The pit bull's genetic traits are not in dispute. Many appellate courts agree that pit bulls pose a significant danger to society and can be regulated accordingly. Some of the genetic traits courts have identified include: unpredictability of aggression, tenacity ("gameness" the refusal to give up a fight), high pain tolerance and the pit bull's "hold and shake" bite style.2 According to forensic medical studies, similar injuries have only been found elsewhere on victims of shark attacks"

Just as the law preventing people owning lions and tigers as pets seems to be working well, I'm sure with rigorous enforcement a law against pitbulls could too.

The problem is as seen the dog/rescue lobby who will start howling about "mass slaughter" as seen on this thread.

Rescues are full of pit and pit mixes who will never be rehomed. Instead of essentially keeping them in prison for life, behavioural euthanasia would be a kind act.

Appellate Court Decisions Affirming Pit Bulls are Dangerous

State appellate court and federal court decisions upholding breed-specific pit bull ordinances that also affirm the unique dangerousness of the pit bull breed.

https://www.dogsbite.org/legislating-dangerous-dogs-appellate-court-decisions.php

WiddlinDiddlin · 09/06/2023 04:40

Except these dogs are a LONG way from 'pitbull' genetics now, given a 'pitbull' in the UK can be literally anything genetically as long as it looks the right shape.

I don't disagree that big heavy dogs are inherently more dangerous than smaller ones. And a Range Rover hitting you at 30 miles an hour will likely do you more damage than a Smart car would...

But focusing on breed ONLY, and specifically, is misleading and not a long term resolution.

Despite all that is said about pitbulls - almost ALL the actual ex fighting dogs seized from Michael Vick, horribly mistreated animals, not well socialised or trained to be pet dogs - went on to live happy SAFE lives in family homes, some of them with other dogs. Why - sensible handling and management and almost certainly... they were bred to fight dogs. Not to attack people.

That is not what is happening here. These dogs are NOT bred to fight dogs any more, most of them haven't been for 20 years or more. They're bred to intimidate and frighten and to attack... people... if any thought is put into their breeding at all that is. I suspect for most, none is. Just £££ and ego of course.

Ego has a huge part to play in all this, typically toxic male ego at that.

Lots of breeds have an instinct to hold - all our gundogs do. Lots of dogs have an instinct to shake once holding something - all the terriers will. Loads of breeds are triggered by movement and want to chase it, cause it, nip at it...

Those are dog traits and ones we have selected for, we can as easily select against!

Something we really should be doing is removing from breed standards, wording such as 'aloof' and 'wary of strangers' - examine many breed standards and you can find plenty that are worded to allow for fear of, dislike of, distrust of - humans. We should not be breeding any dog with an inherent fear or dislike of humans - trust and liking humans is why dogs ARE dogs, not wolves!

LimeLimeLime · 09/06/2023 09:46

I actually linked to various people testifying in a court of law to the damage pitbulls can do. You are clearly someone who puts dogs above humans. Michael Vick's dogs not killing anyone should be nothing praiseworthy. Particularly as the owners would have been screened to the nth degree, compared to most rescues which actively hide their dogs' issues.

Here is an example of the harm UK-based dog apologists can do. A dog which severely injured it's owner for sitting on them, is now free to be rehomed and harm the general population. Great.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/1449ok8/xl_bully_who_mailed_his_owner_is_free_to_nanny/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Reddit - Dive into anything

https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/1449ok8/xl_bully_who_mailed_his_owner_is_free_to_nanny

OutIander · 09/06/2023 09:46

WiddlinDiddlin · 09/06/2023 04:40

Except these dogs are a LONG way from 'pitbull' genetics now, given a 'pitbull' in the UK can be literally anything genetically as long as it looks the right shape.

I don't disagree that big heavy dogs are inherently more dangerous than smaller ones. And a Range Rover hitting you at 30 miles an hour will likely do you more damage than a Smart car would...

But focusing on breed ONLY, and specifically, is misleading and not a long term resolution.

Despite all that is said about pitbulls - almost ALL the actual ex fighting dogs seized from Michael Vick, horribly mistreated animals, not well socialised or trained to be pet dogs - went on to live happy SAFE lives in family homes, some of them with other dogs. Why - sensible handling and management and almost certainly... they were bred to fight dogs. Not to attack people.

That is not what is happening here. These dogs are NOT bred to fight dogs any more, most of them haven't been for 20 years or more. They're bred to intimidate and frighten and to attack... people... if any thought is put into their breeding at all that is. I suspect for most, none is. Just £££ and ego of course.

Ego has a huge part to play in all this, typically toxic male ego at that.

Lots of breeds have an instinct to hold - all our gundogs do. Lots of dogs have an instinct to shake once holding something - all the terriers will. Loads of breeds are triggered by movement and want to chase it, cause it, nip at it...

Those are dog traits and ones we have selected for, we can as easily select against!

Something we really should be doing is removing from breed standards, wording such as 'aloof' and 'wary of strangers' - examine many breed standards and you can find plenty that are worded to allow for fear of, dislike of, distrust of - humans. We should not be breeding any dog with an inherent fear or dislike of humans - trust and liking humans is why dogs ARE dogs, not wolves!

The pit DNA is strong though. Even if it's only an 8th, or a 16th, or less, it's still there.

You wouldn't eat a shit sandwich that "only" had a 16th of shit rather than the whole pile.
Well, maybe you would.

You can't select it out of them. Pure ignorance thinking you can. Sure, many of them don't attack. But too many do, they are not a safe choice.

No telling when those dogs will go pit.

They are over represented in dog attack statistics. It appalls me that you are trying to promote them as safe.

WiddlinDiddlin · 09/06/2023 18:06

I am not trying to promote them as safe!

I am trying to say, as I have in all these threads - breed is misleading, by focusing on breed, which is a human construct anyway and none of these dogs attacking people in the UK are a pedigree anything, with anything like a traceable lineage - we're missing the real issue. That issue is people.

I don't think (as many do) that we should remove the current BSL.

I do think it needs updating.

I do think we should enforce legislation we have before creating new legislation!

People are hyper focusing on breed, an XL Bully in the UK - well most have very little American Bulldog blood in them and American Bulldogs are relatively new as a recognised pedigree type anyway - is not a Pitbull (and most pitbull types in the UK are not either!).

If you assume breed traits are guaranteed, inevitable, not possible to breed out, you don't understand genetics at all.

That is important, and if you can breed them out (and you can) then you can also breed them in.

If we focus on just BREED, as many seem determined to do - then in another 10 years we will just have another breed bred to attack people, bred to be fearful, reactive, quick to use aggression, quick to bite and hold on.

Missingmyusername · 09/06/2023 18:13

@WiddlinDiddlin spot on.

Tots678 · 13/06/2023 08:21

It's in the name really - Pitbull short for Pitcher Bullock - they used to have pitchers of water strapped to their backs and carry them to the parched and dying in the desert in the olden days ........

MrsSkylerWhite · 13/06/2023 10:13

Outlander

”But focusing on breed ONLY, and specifically, is misleading and not a long term resolution.”

It’s certainly a good start. There is no reason for these dogs to exist.

oakleaffy · 13/06/2023 11:01

WiddlinDiddlin · 05/06/2023 05:19

No country as far as I am aware, that has banned pitbulls in the way we have, has had a success in reducing deaths by dog attacks. Many countries have scrapped breed specific legislation of that type (but it is a long way past my bedtime for that data!).

Tightening the laws before Jack Lis... would not have changed those outcomes, we would not have enacted a ban and got rid of existing dogs in that time frame, even without the pandemic.

We need to really look at what drives people to buy such dogs, to stop people keeping dogs (any dogs) in unsuitable conditions. To stop people training dogs with methods that are harmful and to do things that are dangerous.

We need to enforce legislation we already have.

All of that costs money, and require a government with a will to do it and an understanding that it is a complex issue that goes way beyond the scope of any one consultation group, approach, idea.

Education - teaching children before they turn into vulnerable young adults living in scary council flats, who buy cheap bullbreed mixes to feel safe and less alone, because a cheap to feed, hardy, loving best friend who can't be taken from you like a knife would... is extremely appealing.

Teaching kids not to approach dogs, to tell parents 'so and so has a dog' before going to their home, teaching them that dogs are sentient beings with big teeth, that need care and attention - worked into PSE, biology, geography, history... covering topics like genetics, how fear and anxiety can be bred in, how learned experience can be passed genetically. Tons of scope there to work dog safety and general knowledge in, that would help inform the next generation of potential dog owners, and this generation of potential dog victims.

Funding programs like the Dogs Trust education outreach scheme.

Properly licencing breeders - not as we currently do, from a commercial standpoint, but all breeders - and holding breeders potentially liable for their 'product' for the life of that product. Punish those producing mentally and physically unhealthy dogs.

Regulating the dog training industry so AlphaTwatMan cannot sell his incel clients a course on 'how to teach your dog to rip someones arms off'. So that knuckle dragging hard-men cannot shock and zap and garotte a dog into suppressing behaviour and storing up fear and aggression. Enforcing the animal welfare act to help police this.

Improve the lives of people who as a result of low income, life on benefits, shit education, shit childhood - feel they need to protect themselves from threat by owning a scary dog (what threat you ask, believe me when I say some peoples lives are permanently on a knife edge, expecting attack and confrontation at every turn. The less they understand, the poorer communication skills, the higher the poverty, the higher the crime rate in their area, their street, their family... the scarier life is!).

Regulate dog rescue - stop shipping in dogs from overseas for ridiculous transportation fees and no back up, no safety net for these dogs, who are purchased sight unseen from photos on the internet then dumped with owners totally not equipped to cope.

Ban the importation of dogs with their ears cut off to look scary, imported by the above AlphaTwatMan companies who train them to be at the same time a family pet, and a lethal weapon. (Seriously, no one else is importing cropped dogs but this lot!).

It's pie in the fucking sky though, it will never happen because it takes too long, takes too much money, reshuffling things, enforcing things... and it doesn't instantly LOOK (as the barrage of 'why the fuck should my child learn about dogs at school' comments that follow this will prove) like a solution to the issue that banning breeds appears to be.

I agree with this - On everything you suggest.

My friend who has a large rescued Staffie ( probably the only one in a 5 mile radius because of where she lives) was in Town once and we saw a group of young men like you describe deliberately winding up a bull breed to lunge at people.

Friend went marching over, literally wagging her finger - “No! That is NOT how you teach a dog to behave! That is what gives them a bad name, it’s not right”

I was cringing at the side, thinking we’d get told to fuck off, but I think these young men were genuinely surprised at being challenged by a tiny woman who obviously felt so passionate.

Abhannmor · 13/06/2023 11:24

I remember when our twins were babies , we decided to take a nice walk along a canal towpath. A young man was approaching with a large powerful looking dog and my wife turned the buggy so it was facing into a fence - the path being narrow.

' It's alright , he won't hurt ya' said the lad.
'Yes, but I don't know that ' she replied
' You do! Cos I just told ya! he roared.

Then there's the tedious list of dos and don'ts .
Don't show fear . Don't make eye contact. Don't make sudden movements. Don't let them smell your hand. Do let them smell your hand.
To which my response is : do fuck off. And to the sane people : do carry a large stick.

oakleaffy · 13/06/2023 12:01

Abhannmor · 13/06/2023 11:24

I remember when our twins were babies , we decided to take a nice walk along a canal towpath. A young man was approaching with a large powerful looking dog and my wife turned the buggy so it was facing into a fence - the path being narrow.

' It's alright , he won't hurt ya' said the lad.
'Yes, but I don't know that ' she replied
' You do! Cos I just told ya! he roared.

Then there's the tedious list of dos and don'ts .
Don't show fear . Don't make eye contact. Don't make sudden movements. Don't let them smell your hand. Do let them smell your hand.
To which my response is : do fuck off. And to the sane people : do carry a large stick.

Awful oaf of a man. Sadly typical of the type of owner these dogs often have.

My son looked after two Bull breeds for a friend of his- I was a bit worried-
Son ( who likes Small sighthounds) said how judged he felt by passers by ,exercising two Bull breeds.

People with dogs and children crossing the road to avoid them. ( Who can blame them)

This might be what some people like, however.
The fact of people actively avoiding them.

Isometimeswonder · 18/09/2023 07:25

They all need to be destroyed. No exception.

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 18/09/2023 09:06

Isometimeswonder · 18/09/2023 07:25

They all need to be destroyed. No exception.

100%

Any dog a toddler couldn’t beat in a fight.

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