Contacting school about male teacher

[Slidingdowntherainbow]

My child goes to a preschool attached to a primary school. The Head is always on the gate each morning welcoming children (and parents) in the gates, we see her every morning.

The other day, I went to collect my child earlier than usual and walked past the playing field as usual, it's on the way to the preschool.

It was a hot day and the Head, along with another female colleague, was sitting on a grass bank watching the children and I know they saw this as they laughed.

A male teacher was walking along the playing field with each hand squeezing two girls shoulders. So he was between them, with a hand on each of their outside shoulders, seemingly squeezing. The girls were giggling and the the Head laughed. Not that I think it matters as he shouldn't be touching them at all, but it wasn't a quick squeeze, he was more resting his hands there for a good 30 seconds I'd say.

Anyway, it may be nothing, but it made me feel very uncomfortable. 1) it's inappropriate to touch a pupil for no good reason 2) he gives me the ick anyway, he's a big presence and I sometimes see him when dropping my child off and I just don't like his demeanor, not sure why.

Do I report this? My child won't be going to this school so I'm not worried about that. More that the Head actually saw this with her own eyes and laughed, so I suspect will be defensive. I then have to walk past her daily, potentially for the next two years. Unfortunately I can't report anonymously as I was the only person walking past at this time.

I'm not suggesting anything more than this has happened, but isn't this a slippery slope? Should a teacher (especially male), be touching pupils necks?

Would appreciate opinions please!

I really feel sorry for teachers. My children had wonderful teachers including in pre school. At the pre school age they had to sometimes be helped in the toilet if there was an issue, as in change their clothes and other mishaps which required tissues and a cuddle. One male teacher put two of my daughters, age 12 on his shoulders on a ski trip. I didn't report him because I'm a terrible parent as I don't think all men are monsters. The real monsters are the ones who know how to hide what they are. They don't do things in plain sight.

Safeguarding ?? Why do you think it’s a safeguarding issue ? Is it because he was male ? Do you think he hurt the girls ? If they where laughing I doubt it

I am a very good DSL, and whilst I would take great care to never make someone feel that their report was a burden or irritation, if they came to me with the scenario described in the OP it would also be my duty to explain to them why it was not a safeguarding issue. Part of my role as DSL is to educate on the nuances of safeguarding as there is a huge amount of misunderstanding and misinformation. I would also have to note OP's comments about not liking this persons demeanour and them giving her the "ick" as possible motivation for making this report.

Again this has context. When touching, no matter how innocent, has no context then it really should be discouraged.

The real monsters are the ones who know how to hide what they are. They don't do things in plain sight.

Wrong.

There are plenty who hide in plain sight. They know full well that people tend to prefer to question their own perception and judgment rather than rock the boat.

I'm in 2 minds, OP. How old were the girls do you think? Late primary, like 10/11? Or were they more like 6/7ish?

I agree that teachers shouldn't touch students much, I think a quick pat on the back or something is ok. And I don't think you're bad, or weird or whatever for wanting to report it. I don't think you're nosy or anything, I think your intentions are good, and I think you don't deserve a lot of the attacks you're getting.

However I want to tell you a story from my childhood. I feel sad that teachers can't muck around with teachers much anymore, everything is over-regulated and tight. I know it has to be, but it's sad imo. When I was in primary school, our Principal was an older gent, a softie and much loved by the kids. The 1st and 2nd grade girls for example, would all want to hold his hands as he walked around the grounds. Often he'd have 4 girls hanging off 4 different fingers. It was harmless and sweet. All the children loved him, and he had a genuine affection for each child in the school. They'd all run and compete to hold his hand/finger. He was one of the most truly decent and beloved and respected heads I'd had and had heard of.

I truly think it's sad we've lost that, and lost that touch with children and teachers/heads. I understand why, but I feel privileged to have grown up in that era, and feel sad for the kids today. I think as a society we've lost a lot of that innocent human touch between teacher/head/caregiver and child. For some children who don't have a great homelife, that affection that receive from other important people in their lives such as school, is valuable to the child. I feel really sad about it. I don't know what the answer is though.

I wouldn't report this teacher solely on the basis of what's described here but I can understand why the OP might feel uncomfortable with what they saw.

I was a teenager when it happened so not quite the same situation but had the experience of being touched on shoulders, arms etc. by a teacher. This progressed to 'accidental' brushing up against me, and eventually he tried to get me to go to his home and pose naked for a photoshoot.

I was a vulnerable kid and had no idea how to deal with the unwanted physical contact from an adult in a position of authority over me, and I do remember giggling due to nerves - not because I was happy or comfortable with being touched. Quite the opposite.

Obviously most teachers are not like this, but it all happened in plain sight and I'd have been very glad if any adult had cared enough to raise concerns.

• feel sad that teachers can't muck around with teachers much anymore should say teachers can't muck around with children much anymore

I chair LADO strategy meetings. You are talking utter shit. So fed up of people going on a 2 hour safeguarding seminar and then spouting about their 'safeguarding knowledge'. Exercise some common sense.

I totally agree with you and have done similar safeguarding as I ran a preschool and in this instance it’s about context.

There was no need for anyone to be walking round the field with their arms around the children’s shoulders/necks. However, I think different schools have very different levels of what is acceptable/appropriate. Also, I guess he may have been watching 2 children with SEND who needed a guiding hand to prevent them running off for example, but who were too old to be having hands held. I don’t know- it could have been a number of reasons.

What I would do is, instead of reporting it specifically, I would maybe ask reception to look at their safeguarding policy - see what that says then you could subtly question it.

For an example though, as an adult at work in my early 20’s, my boss started coming up behind me when I was sat at my desk and putting his hands on my shoulders. He would let them linger on my shoulders whilst he asked me how I was getting and I wanted to be sick. It happened quite often. Then I squirmed away one day when he did it and after that, he downgraded my annual report for no reason and then I left on maternity leave. When I think about it now, there was absolutely zero need for him to touch me but he did anyway. It made me feel really trapped and intimidated. So for so many people on the thread to be downplaying it as you overeating, I disagree.

And by the way I have a male colleague that is very touchy ( probably cultural ) , when he is speaking close to me or anyone he tends to touch people shoulders , arms and even my head on occasion . It never made me feel uneasy in any way , I’m 100% sure there is nothing sexual to it ( since he is gay and happily married ) .
the fact adults and kids where laughing seems to me you caught something out of context .

I would feel weird if a colleague or my boss changed my nappy but there are males that change nappies

I don't get you colleague/boss connection

Not one poster has said that teachers are above reproach. Are you reading a different thread?

Nobody is saying that safeguarding isn't important. Nobody is saying that some forms of touching would be inappropriate. They are merely saying that a blanket "no-touch" policy is not generally in the best interests of children, for the reasons outlined by many posters, and that the specific situation described by the OP does not sound like there is any cause for concern.

What is concerning in my view is the apparent inability of some posters to distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate physical contact.

So much naïveté on here. I didn’t realise teachers had a god-like status and all must be given the utmost respect and benefit of the doubt. I didn’t realise context didn’t matter when touching or hugging by a teacher (re posts saying so and so was upset so teacher gave them a hug and that was lovely is just the same as teacher invading personal space for no particular reason). Thankfully most teachers are fine and kind and caring but not all. If a child feels uncomfortable that needs to be respected.

I apologise if my posts were considered beyond acceptability in terms of the talk guidelines.

I still think it's inappropriate to refer to someone as a paedo without proof, and it worries me that so many people are suspected of inappropriate behaviour without any real cause - as in the OP.

I agree . In this case the girls didn’t seem uncomfortable according to OP

I recently had a very new and inexperienced member of staff demanding I make an immediate referral to Childrens Services about a completely unsubstantiated, third hand bit of information that even if it was true would not actually present a risk to a child. When I explained that this would not be an appropriate response they informed me that they would do it themselves then "because safeguarding is everyone's responsibility". I said "you're absolutely right, but what you're talking about is not safeguarding!"

We tell staff to trust their instincts, and usually that's the right thing to do. Unfortunately some people's instincts are unreliable, and when that's mixed with arrogance it makes them unwilling to listen to others and can do more harm than good.

I didn’t realise teachers had a god-like status and all must be given the utmost respect and benefit of the doubt.

Again, absolutely no one has said this.

I’ve worked in various roles over the years, play worker, TA and teacher and never have I been told to not touch a child.

Funny how people read stuff into threads that very clearly isn't there!!

I work in a school and have also had safeguarding training. All members of staff have had safeguarding training.
All the staff at your daughters school will have had safeguarding training it’s a requirement now.
we had a caretaker that the children adored and would give him a hug when they saw him.
It was completely harmless and innocent. They would shout his name and run and hug him. Nobody saw it as anything sinister. If it was wouldn’t he have hidden it to avoid suspicion.
just chill a bit and be glad that the school has teachers that are interested in their pupils because some teachers really aren’t.

I would like to feel that if I expressed some concern about a teacher who seemed to be touching children without particular context - eg to keep them from danger, to deal with distress or injury, that I would be thanked for my concerns and assured the incident would be noted.

I would also expect that a school would do something.

This might simply be taking the trouble to observe the teacher. In what circumstances were they touching children. Was it equally directed towards female and male children? Did they have favourites eg particular young children or the older ones? Ones with a particular physical appearance? Was the touch always initiated by the teacher?

And yes, there are some people who are simply more physically expressive than others? But a decision might still be taken to make that teacher aware that touch was only appropriate in certain contexts - eg when a child was distressed or at risk of hurting themself. If they chose to disregard this, then they'd be putting themselves at risk.

Simply being told from some lofty perspective. 'Oh no, you've got safeguarding completely wrong, would not be reassuring.'

I understand where you are coming from, but it’s not either/or.

A couple of examples of my own childhood. I found out that probably my favourite teacher of all time - a female language teacher, had been sacked for having a relationship with a sixth-former years after I left. That made me sad.

Another. In my school there was a teacher I heard was rumours about from my brother that he had arcade machines at home and the boys created a new nickname for him - imagine he was Mr Nilsson and they called him Mr ‘Feelson’ - that sort of thing. He left the school any there were the vaguest rumours. He went on to teach at my future boyfriend’s school - a boys’ school - it was so weird, my boyfriend and all his friends all held him in high regard and affection, even though they sensed he was a perv. They saw him as a ‘legend’ and it really reminded me of the film The History Boys, where they colluded with him crossing boundaries. Messed with my head a bit. Anyway it turned out, he was found to be an abuser later and sacked.

One more thing. A teacher friend of mine loved using these teaching resources - she said they were so magical and amazing - called something ‘Sparkle’, and she was gutted to find out she couldn’t use them any more because the creator turned out to be a child abuser.

It’s not black and white - affection towards kids can spill over into being inappropriate. It’s a pretty unnatural situation for parents to be separated from their kids for all those hours in the day, and teachers see a lot of them, sides that we don’t get to see, but they are still our kids.

With my own favourite teacher, I think she would have been helped if stricter boundaries were enforced.

I specifically meant the OP (should probably have said OP rather than thread). I could barely believe what I was reading tbh, though ultimately it's good she posted it, hopefully it's given her serious pause for thought
I see, sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick. I thought you meant the thread overall.

We were told "gut feeling/feeling uncomfortable" is enough to report something. It was after a case where a teacher was found to be abusing young pupils and it emerged afterwards that many colleagues had been "uncomfortable" about behaviours which never quite met their thresholds to report.
That's usually because there were low level concerns and it's fairly standard to have a low level concerns policy in places I've worked.

A stranger obsessing about a member of staff they don't know, at a school they don't know, that they only see from a distance but have decided they don't like him, he is arrogant, and they don't like the way he interacts with pupils in front of the head teacher is not the same as colleagues having low level concerns.

We don't know, and neither does the OP due to the distance she was at, whether there was a good reason for the teacher to hold those children by the shoulders.