Mum friend with possible munchausens by proxy

[Schooldinners1]

What would you do?

I can't go into all the details RN but it's been going on for years.

Constant doctorsce trips in different cities, requesting different hospital when one hospital won't believe here, unexplanable illnesses, lack of diagnosis, mystified specialists, sitting in GP surgery waiting room for hours, hospital waiting room A+E, lots of messages about it all sending people photos.

Teachers suspicious and saying “don't think it's constapation”, doctors refusing to write up letters she's requesting.

Blaming allergies that are unproven and reactions for bad behaviour and constapation for when he's naughty.

Says he can't join in sports or plays because of bib or costume and his “allergies”.

There is always a drama and she seems to get pleasure from telling people about it all. Longer it goes on it looks more and more like her own “accounts” of these things happening.

The doctors stopped listening at a point she then became addicted to the homeopath. Who kept giving “pills” she then kept paying for calls even when on holiday to shamanic therapist cause his behaviour was so bad.

I don't even know when she will stop.

Out of interest OP, how does the child react? Like, one minute he's running around a rugby field, next minute he is being carried or being put in a wheelchair. What does he say about it?

It doesn’t matter that MbP is now called something else. Irrelevant. It’s the same problem by a different name.

And it’s not that rare. Lots of children are brought up by parents with a mental illness. Whether the parent can help it or not makes no difference to the child whose childhood is being damaged. You’d hope at least that the doctors will draw the line at doing any harmful interventions - which seems to be the case here as the mother keeps having to change doctors and start again.

@Greenleafgirl - I'm so sorry this happened to you too. I was told by a lovely kind paediatrician that the only reason we didn't end up in court was because of our backgrounds. I.e., wealthy, knew how to fight our corner, and most importantly, a couple! He said that he had seen more than one single mother dragged through hell because the ex wouldn't support her position (and this paed was saying that the child was genuinely unwell, they just hadn't worked out what yet). I now know 4 women who've been taken to court in similar circs, it's despicable.

I hope you have had the opportunity to talk and process, it's so destructive - life changing, I think.

Please listen to the podcast upthread. It’s all about this exact situation.

It’s so hard because no one wants to deny a child the help they need. Also, so many parents get accused of making stuff up etc. No one want to accuse a parent of harming their child.

Yes, to all of this. I think many are sadly uncomfortable with allowing themselves to accept that it could be a lot more common than the published figures, but I've definitely seen "chatter" to that effect among people with a focal interest in the subject. Factitious illness has really kind of exploded with the advent of the internet so it's a rapidly developing field.

We were put through hell. We have a council house and I really think they saw us an easy target. As soon as my family got involved (professionals And helped us with solicitors fees and probate reports to back us up) they seemed to get scared off but till that point it was hell.

I was giving my evidence and test results (nhs ones!) and they kept saying things like ‘no evidence of allergies’ and ‘this could be a misdiagnosis’ and that I was attention seeking and fabricating, denying appts that had happened etc etc, the nursery making stuff up saying I’d said things luckily I had the emails but they said it didn’t exist! Then a solicitor got involved and submitted the same stuff as me and it was accepted ….

*private reports

I think anxiety and/or preference for a physical diagnosis over a psychological or behavioural one are more common than Munchausens. Also some parents are not bright, are credulous, and grasp whatever "answer" is offered on whatever website they frequent.

The net impact on the child may be exactly the same though, so if you believe they are at risk, speak to social services.

I'm going to project all the way to constipation. Absolutely normal in EDS, complete with pain and irritability. Can also chuck in Coeliac, as that can also have constipation and pain/tiredness as the main effect - and pain from movement from either can reduce the amount of daily activity, so not encouraging motility.

Then there's the leg pains and tiredness. Both textbook for EDS and AI issues such as rheumatoid or psoriatic arthritis (neither of which have a definitive test). And the allergies - if your immune system is already going a bit batshit, it can and does go daft for other things randomly.

But go ahead and tell me again I'm actively harming the diagnosis and treatment of diseases I actually have by stating that the described symptoms can be absolutely as those dismissed.

Highly recommend the podcast "Sympathy Pains" too. Very good exploration of the psychology of factitious illness.

@NeverDropYourMooncup I have severe EDS, thanks, there's literally nothing you can tell me about it. Hence why I know it isn't treated by a shaman and EDS patients don't play rugby.

@NeverDropYourMooncup And yes, by further associating EDS with factitious illness, you literally are harming real patients.

So your well-meaning report could prevent him accessing diagnosis and treatment, result in him being taken into care and her criminalised

The child’s welfare is paramount. There’s a lot of noise on this thread but the fact remains the only way FII can be identified is if professionals from all the agencies get in a room together to discuss the evidence. Using your own experience as a parent with an illness or allergies does not diminish the likelihood this parent is abusing her child. I would report to SS and it’s up to them what they choose to do with the information.

The conditions that got us accused were :
EDS
PoTs
ASD
ADHD
coeliac
IBS
ME
allergies

Maybe they have more information about it then you do? If you're concerned then report to social services who might do something to support the child if he is genuinely poorly and isn't getting anywhere with medical staff (not unheard of), or the mum who is evidently poorly if she is making it all up.

Ours started after we pushed for an EHCP and extra support ….

Furthermore, for everyone:

Constipation is not diagnostic of Ehlers Danlos syndrome. It is not in the diagnostic criteria. It is a very common complaint of childhood. The pp who suggested that constipation in a child should lead to a consideration of EDS is being absolutely misleading to the point of irresponsibility.

Further: there is no definitively established link between coeliac and EDS. There is no definitively established link between autoimmune and EDS. There is no definitively established link between neurodiversity and EDS. Research into all these overlaps is merely ongoing.

A pp simply thinking it "maybe, sorta, kinda sounds like" any given condition is not a good enough reason to discount the welfare of a child who may be a victim of factitious illness imposed on them by a parent. Welfare and safeguarding is paramount.

The thing is, both things can be true. This mother may be attention-seeking over his illness and her illness, and the child and she might also be ill. I know someone who fits into this category myself, but ultimately they were proved right that there were problems with the children even if they dealt with them in an attention-seeking way reflecting their own mental health issues.

One doesn't preclude the other necessarily.

Report if you feel strongly the child is being harmed and let others judge that. My feeling is little will happen, yes, she's being a pain about it all and showing letters, but ultimately if the child is at school, playing games, and goes in a wheelchair once a year as tired on holiday, then no one is going to intervene for that. He's not being actively harmed as in given substances, or something.

Honestly I'd just post publicly to her social media 'Getting help for the MBP yet or do we have to storm the basement and save Gypsy Rose?'
Along with a meme pic. Not just to be mean but to call everyone else's attention to it. The more people around her that know whats what, the harder it'll be for her. And the less sympathy she will get. Which is what she feeds on. So let everyone know what she is doing.

Pinkbonbon takes no prisoners

My son has EDS, diagnosed at GOSH when he was 7. He luckily is not severely affected - hyper mobility in hands and legs but also has a cardiac condition which is thought to be related. He also suffers from digestive issues and resulting constipation and is also slightly on the spectrum (undiagnosed) and could be described as 'highly strung' - as suffers with some anxiety which is also thought to go along with EDS. Much of this improved post-puberty.

However, I managed to get him diagnosed, access appropriate treatment (physio to stop tie walking) and relavent follow up appointments. He then went onto do well at school without missing more than a few mornings or afternoons for appointments and is now enjoying secondary school, expected to do well at GCSEs, sports and has a small, but strong friendship group. He also managed to turn his annoying hypermobile hands, which used to cause him a big issue with writing, into a positive as he now plays guitar at a very high level.

The girl I mentioned was in the same class as him and she is a school refuser, very troubled, is under social services and is struggling academically as missed so much schooling. That is the difference. The way her mother responded to her "sore tummies" was very different and has done her a great disservice. Whether or not she actually has a medical condition remains to be seen. The mother talked of EDS but I never saw her bend her hand back to touch her wrist like my son did on command as his playground party trick.

They now say it’s ‘emotional abuse’ and can remove on that basis so whether or not illness has actually been induced they say giving a child a ‘sick role’ is abuse . This is what they tried to pin on us it was disgusting they just kept saying ‘possible emotional abuse’ and ‘future harm’ but didn’t elaborate or give any examples they just say it with little to no evidence we had to fight and fight hard as the school were saying I’d never even given medical info (v embarrassing for them when they refused the SAR And I had emails if kept and I wen got the LA to get the schools emails where they clearly did have the care plan etc)

@verysmellyjelly - I actually thought you were agreeing with me with your last line - "There is a related point, which is that linking conditions to MbP accusations by implication and in a generalised and clumsy way is actually harmful to real sufferers of those conditions".

This could equally be talking about those who are dealing with conditions, and being accused of making it up.

If you go back, I agreed that there may well be something wrong, but the insistence (by a lay person) that all those things add up to Mbps is a bit dramatic. I think asking someone to take a look is one thing. The point of this condition, surely, is that the parent is making the child ill, to garner sympathy, money, support etc.

This mother may be behaving bizarrely, but nothing she says implies that the child is being poisoned.

I think a lot of it comes down to the carer's personality. If she was a rich hippie saying her child was banned from eating sugar, could only do yoga, not PE, and how she has this wonderful naturopath, no one would be throwing around this life ruining accusation. She would be seen as having more money than sense, and urge worst that could be said is how sad for the child that they're not allowed birthday cake.

If this mum we're talking about is struggling, agitated, has no one to support her, or make her feel heard for whatever reason, she is supposed to be stoic, demure, a martyr.

She is obviously loud, shares too much, and it's clear that, Mbps notwithstanding, OP doesn't like her and finds her annoying.

God forbid it turns out she and the son are both too some degree ND. Issues with impulse control, not reading the room, not understanding that no one else is interested... ?

Post for advice, say you're worried, but don't start assuming that you know the underlying issues, and at least irl, don't start using labels that can be hard to come back from.

He could be behaving badly because of her behaviour, it really doesn't sound normal at all!

He is now well behind his peers at school, can't write or read very well at all and attendance is poor due to all the days off and hospital trips.

Trips she sets up and organises to fill her time with.

I most people are suspicious but are scared to stand up and be the one who raises it. All concerned for their own jobs presumably.