Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

[SeriouslyTryadifferentstory]

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness.

My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

It would help to know their reasoning behind this request? As you own your flat any proceeds from your own sale will have nothing to do with care home fees so what benefit is it to anyone to sell your flat?

That was my thought but it sounds like some of the siblings aren't happy with just being told no and are pressuring her.

Their parents were entitled to make whatever gifts they wanted with their own money. It doesn't have to be equal.

Personally, I’d weigh up what my share might be if the building were sold as one, together with the unknown of new upstairs neighbours if I decided to stay.

What nerve! They can sell their own darn house and find a new place!

Whether you are the legal owner - explicit on Land Reg etc. - of the flat you live in, is key. If you are, those wanting you to sell can whistle.

It doesn’t need to be an issue. Just say , “nope, not happening” with a laugh!

No solicitor or bank would allow a sale and a mortgage to go thru without correct documents.

"just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live".

"I have somewhere to live. The home that I created, own and have lived in for 30 years, while supporting our parents so you didn't have to"

Need more information about the circumstances and procedure of splitting the house into two:
Was it done "officially" and legally?
Whose mortgage did you pay off? Your parents, or your own?
Is it set up in a way that you could sell one part without the other?

If the house still technically belongs to your father, you may have to move to free up the cash to pay the care home fees - legally it would be your dad's money (the alternative is the four of you covering the costs of the care home from your own pocket). You have left yourself pretty vulnerable if this is the housing arrangement, without any legal protection / paperwork

But if you are the legal owner of your part of the house then they can't force you to sell up.... but you need to consider how you would feel about a stranger living in the other part.

One option might be to rent out your dad's half to raise some funds to go towards his care without having to sell the property.

To be clear, the property was separated legally into two flats, with separate entrances. Each has its own utilities and council tax is paid per flat, not on the house as a whole. The mortgage was taken out in the bottom flat, at the market rate once all the renovations had been completed. DH and I have worked hard to pay the mortgage off and we really don't want to move. We have good public transport links, shops and restaurants within a 10 minute walk and we get on well with our neighbours.

I think I'm going to tell by brothers to take a hike. I fail to see why I should sell my home so that a better price can be gained on Dad flat.

I would also consider what your siblings are thinking about when the talk about value. If they are pushing for the whole house to be sold, are they expecting you to take the value of your flat, and then to use the remaining to cover care home fees (and ultimately inheritance) or are they thinking the whole lot is fair game?

Unless your parents still owned the part you are living in, you have the potential to lose a lot of money here, unless you put your brothers back in their box

As others have said, it depends how the house was divided in terms of who owns what outright and under what circumstances.

But, assuming the house was split and financially arranged as if you and your parents were 'strangers' each buying their own flat, you could possibly ask the local council if they'd consider a DPA (Deferred Payment Agreement) - I (hopefully) have attached the Age UK information sheet Property and paying for residential care (ageuk.org.uk)

Your DF would have to meet the criteria, the council would have to agree to it and you may incur interest. It's in effect a loan to pay his bills and defer selling the flat until he dies. Obviously you'd have to consider it carefully.

You could then arrange with your siblings to rent out DF's flat. That could go towards his care home bills. That may make the idea more palatable to the council too as they're not footing every penny. The fact that you live downstairs and are a relative with a DH who isn't really well enough to have the stress of moving may help the case for a DPA. I don't know as I've never asked for one but it seems like a reasonable initial thing to discuss with the council.

That way, if it's straight forward and financially worth while, you at least have control over who you have as a tenant and, in theory, you can evict them if they 'break the rules'. You don't have the same power if the flat is sold as it's then highest bidder. The property is making some money towards the care home fees and, possibly, by the time the property has to be sold, it'll be worth a little more. Which may be a good argument for your Dbros.

The biggest obstacle, assuming a DPA is the way forward, is that the property will definitely have to be sold at some point in the future. That day may come quicker than you think sadly. So you do need to decide the way forward. Do you want someone living above you that may be noisier than your parents or do you want to sell the two flats/house? If you've extended your flat it may be worth more so you'd have to divide up into percentages. It becomes complicated so you really do need to speak to both estate agents and solicitors in preparation. You could find that it's a limited market for a house to be converted back into a house and the flat market is buoyant at the time or vice versa.

Make sure you have your ducks in a row whether you sell now or defer. You need to protect yourself and DH. DF is where he is and he's taken care of.

Tell your brothers to FO, or better still tell your husband to as he isn't related to them and his financial affairs are none of their business.

In regards to were your dad lives look at whether renting it out will leave enough profit to pay for some of his care home fees, or whether it is better sold. It is better for you to sell it while he's still alive.

In that case it's completely clear cut.

I might also remind them that moving house is stressful and expensive - even if your siblings covered your costs of moving - and you already have enough to deal with given that your husband is ill.

What on earth are they thinking? You are happy in your home. You don't want to move. They need to back off.

In that case, @SeriouslyTryadifferentstory , your parents’ flat only needs to be sold for the care home fees. There can be no question of you selling yours. If your siblings are aware of the legal ownership situation, I can’t think why they’re even suggesting anything else.

One thing I’d say, though, well before selling to a new owner, make sure there’s a watertight clause about non-noisy floor coverings overhead!

I don't even understand why they would be suggesting this. Unless they are suggesting you sell your flat and give up some of the money from that, how does it even help? If you did sell you flat, that money is yours (and would be needed to buy somewhere else!).

Why sell your flat to get more money that is just going to go to pay for the care home? If you sell dad's flat and use that to pay for the care home, once dad's money gets to £27,000 (I think) the government pay for the care home. Tell brothers no. Hope you have power of attorney for dad.

Good for you! They can do one - when they come along and tell you they've sold their properties to pay your DF's fees then maybe - maybe - you could consider contributing but I'm betting there's no way they'd do that. I'm also fairly certain that your parents wouldn't want to see you booted out of your home that you bought and paid for!

Is it even the case that the whole would be worth more than the two flats? Usually people (builders) buy houses and split them up to maximise the value. It would be costly for someone to convert back to one dwelling.

Anyway, irrelevant. Your dad has a flat to sell. That’s it. Tell them to jog on.

Why would any buyer be attracted to a house that isnt even a house anymore anyway? It would be a massive building project to convert back into a house again from the 2 flats, planning permissions, legal conversions etc etc

And thats without it being quite bizarre to suggest it in the first place, like another poster said why dont they sell their houses and you and your sister can 'find them somewhere to live'

I wonder if the brothers' plan is to sell the house as a whole and then split the proceeds into 50% for care home fees and 50% for the OP. That would be unfair on the OP as a ground floor flat with garden will be worth more than the upstairs flat.

Stick to your guns, OP. It's perfectly reasonable to want to stay in your flat.

If legally the two flats are separate and yours is legally yours I’d be telling them to get f*cord and see if they’re also selling their own homes!!

So, you and your husband own the bottom flat? According to Land Registry is it you?

If you or your dad owned both flats then I can see how this would be done, but you own them seperately so surely they would have to be seperate sales anyway? You can't re-unify a house while there is 2 seperate owners. Also, I imagine he wants this because with the garden etc yours is likely worth more!