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Original poster

Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

731 replies

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 21/05/2023 23:15

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness.

My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

OP posts:
determinedtomakethiswork · 22/05/2023 09:48

But why do they want you to sell your flat?

CabernetSauvignon · 22/05/2023 09:48

In light of your update, I agree it would be insanity to sell your flat. I don't even understand why your brothers want to get a better price for the upstairs one. Ultimately, if all the proceeds go on care home fees, the costs will become the responsibility of the council. Why on earth should you lose your home just to benefit the local authority?

duchessofginlane · 22/05/2023 09:49

Right, so the upstairs flat needs to be sold sometime to meet your father's care home fees? Can you afford to buy it? If not, what conditions, if any, can you set on who buys it and lives there? New owners/neighbours upstairs could change things so think now about sound insulation etc. It's not great but a sale is inevitable eventually, isn't it?

bellac11 · 22/05/2023 09:50

Newspeaker · 22/05/2023 09:44

Blimey people, it's all in Op's posts, you could at least bother to read them, there are only two.

The post makes perfect sense.

She and her husband own their flat - legally all sorted out at the time the property was split.

My eyes are rolling so hard on this thread. OP makes it clear in the OP, not even just the additional post that she owns the flat. It cant be much clearer

rookiemere · 22/05/2023 09:52

If they were legally separated and you own your flat, then it's not in for consideration.

Did you pay your parents anything when you took on the apartment?

Nordicrain · 22/05/2023 09:52

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 08:47

To be clear, the property was separated legally into two flats, with separate entrances. Each has its own utilities and council tax is paid per flat, not on the house as a whole. The mortgage was taken out in the bottom flat, at the market rate once all the renovations had been completed. DH and I have worked hard to pay the mortgage off and we really don't want to move. We have good public transport links, shops and restaurants within a 10 minute walk and we get on well with our neighbours.

I think I'm going to tell by brothers to take a hike. I fail to see why I should sell my home so that a better price can be gained on Dad flat.

If that is the case, tell your brother he can sell his house to contribute to fees and you will sort somewhere for him to live.

CabernetSauvignon · 22/05/2023 09:54

I don't see how selling your flat means you get a better price for your father's flat? If it's still a flat, it makes no difference to the buyer; if they want to convert it back into one house, any price will take into account the hassle of planning permission, changing the title, and presumably quite major works including taking out the second kitchen.

Is the ground floor flat in your name? I know you say you paid off the mortgage, but that isn't quite the same thing.

BlackeyedSusan · 22/05/2023 09:54

SW2002 · 21/05/2023 23:27

Perhaps the brothers could sell their own homes to pay the fees and you and your sis could 'find them somewhere to live?'

No? (shocker!!) Thought not!

They. Can. Piss. Right. Off. Then!

This, the cheeky bastards.

Floralnomad · 22/05/2023 09:54

If you own your flat it’s got nothing to do with your dad or your brothers just tell them you are not moving and your dads flat can be sold to cover his fees .

RoseRobot · 22/05/2023 09:59

I don't understand. They are two separate properties that happen to be in the same building. It's perfectly legitimate to sell your parents' flat to pay for fees but yours belongs to you and is not connected in any way to the sale of their flat. Are your siblings confused about this?

gettingolderbutcooler · 22/05/2023 09:59

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 08:47

To be clear, the property was separated legally into two flats, with separate entrances. Each has its own utilities and council tax is paid per flat, not on the house as a whole. The mortgage was taken out in the bottom flat, at the market rate once all the renovations had been completed. DH and I have worked hard to pay the mortgage off and we really don't want to move. We have good public transport links, shops and restaurants within a 10 minute walk and we get on well with our neighbours.

I think I'm going to tell by brothers to take a hike. I fail to see why I should sell my home so that a better price can be gained on Dad flat.

So tell those sibs to take a hike,
There's something about that deal you don't like. 🎶

Soz. Couldn't help myself.

HashtagShitShop · 22/05/2023 10:00

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 08:47

To be clear, the property was separated legally into two flats, with separate entrances. Each has its own utilities and council tax is paid per flat, not on the house as a whole. The mortgage was taken out in the bottom flat, at the market rate once all the renovations had been completed. DH and I have worked hard to pay the mortgage off and we really don't want to move. We have good public transport links, shops and restaurants within a 10 minute walk and we get on well with our neighbours.

I think I'm going to tell by brothers to take a hike. I fail to see why I should sell my home so that a better price can be gained on Dad flat.

Then it's yours outright and the bottom part being sold would be nonsensical as you would be homeless AND have to pay the care home fees with it. AND have to pay to convert it back as a house to sell it as a house?

They are talking out their arses. It's above and beyond and alright for them because they're not the ones who would lose their home and have to find a new one and potentially a new mortgage at at least 20 years older than the last one and have to work to pay it off because they would definitely think you were out of order for expecting their help 'to pay for your house'.

Tell them to take a hike

OrwellianTimes · 22/05/2023 10:02

Of course they are being ridiculous, and their logic is flawed.

If both flats are sold as one house you’ll get half the price of the house. I can hardly imagine that the extra increase is going to fund much more for care home - especially as once father in laws assets fall below certain threshold care is covered by the government.

grumpycow1 · 22/05/2023 10:03

Definitely tell them to take a hike! It’s your flat, and will make no difference really as you’ll need to factor in the costs of joining the flats together again, your moving costs etc. they are being ridiculous!!!

anyolddinosaur · 22/05/2023 10:06

So you sort out management arrangements for repairs, if not already done when the house was divided and tell your brothers to take a long walk off a short pier.

anyolddinosaur · 22/05/2023 10:08

Of you want to be a bit legal about it "We refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram."

That was fuck off.

tonyatotter · 22/05/2023 10:09

A lot hinges on whether the OP legally owns the flat, which is a question that hasn't been answered. This means who's name is on the leasehold / land registry documents, and if both names are on there what the separation is, ie by joint tenants or tenants in common.

Presuming the land registry documentation for the OPs flat is soley in their name, then there is no need to consider further.

If the father is a named party, then I would advocate talking to a solicitor - due to the length of time you have been at the property and the investment you have made then you probably have a fair case for Estoppel over the property.

After talking to the solicitor then get the LA to do a financial assessment over your fathers affairs. If you are named on the deeds they may disregard the property (at least your flat) because it would be too onerous to persue, particularly as two properties and a freehold are involved, or they may issue a mandatory (some LAs still list carer as a mandatory disregard, so if you provided care..) or discretional disregard. If you are the sole named party on your flat it won't even be considered.

I would'nt advocate signing up to a DPA, they are basically a loan, with interest, administered by the LA and require the sale of the property (or start of same property) within 90 days of death.

Having dealt professionally with quite a few of these cases where the waters are muddied (ie not just a vacant house), my advice is always, 1/ find out your position 2/ chuck the ball in the LAs court, sign up to nothing and wait for their answer on how they view it.

But, i'll return to the key point, which the OP hasn't answered - whose names appear on the land registry documents, and how are they divided? How is the freehold arranged?

Gothambutnotahamster · 22/05/2023 10:13

RightWhereYouLeftMe · 22/05/2023 09:00

I don't even understand why they would be suggesting this. Unless they are suggesting you sell your flat and give up some of the money from that, how does it even help? If you did sell you flat, that money is yours (and would be needed to buy somewhere else!).

I thought the same!

willWillSmithsmith · 22/05/2023 10:15

I still don’t understand why your brothers think you should sell your flat? What has your flat got to do with anything just because it happens to be below your parents flat? Would they tell you to sell your house if it had been two houses next to each other? Why you didn’t tell them no in the first place is beyond me.

knobheeeeed · 22/05/2023 10:16

You need to check out what the situation is legally.
You've said the flats were separated legally - but what does that mean? Who is named on the land registry documents and who owns the freehold? That could complicate things.

But, I don't get the point of the brothers wanting to sell the whole house. What is the point of that? If they get more money for your Dad's half by doing so, it's just more money to spend on care home fees before the government's contribution kicks in when you've run the capital down. It's weird and I'd wonder what they are up to.

Tell them no and also get legal advice on the situation.

willWillSmithsmith · 22/05/2023 10:16

Is this going to be a drip feed and your parents owned the flat and you paid the mortgage because other than that none of this makes sense.

allthewoes · 22/05/2023 10:21

FatCatBum · 22/05/2023 08:49

I would also consider what your siblings are thinking about when the talk about value. If they are pushing for the whole house to be sold, are they expecting you to take the value of your flat, and then to use the remaining to cover care home fees (and ultimately inheritance) or are they thinking the whole lot is fair game?

Unless your parents still owned the part you are living in, you have the potential to lose a lot of money here, unless you put your brothers back in their box

Why are they bothered about getting a better price when the money will likely disappear in care home fees anyway?

TheApplianceofScience · 22/05/2023 10:22

Tell him to jog on, end of.

Pluvia · 22/05/2023 10:23

It's your flat. You've paid the mortgage on it and own it. The fact that your parents owned the flat above is irrelevant. Tell your brothers that one of them should sell their home and then you and the rest 'will find somewhere for them'.

itsmylife7 · 22/05/2023 10:26

Cheeky fuckers.
Tell them to sale their homes and you'll find them somewhere else,see how they like that idea.
Don't let them bully you OP.