Page 3 | Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 2023-05-21T22:15:43+00:00

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness. My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone. Sorry, just needed to vent.

runninglady55 · 22/05/2023 07:36

There's far too little information to comment properly

Were the conversions done properly literally, separate entrances and locks? What about freehold, title deed separation? And who owns it on deed and how was it structured for tenants on deed? (Joint or tenants in common with just you or were your parents on, and did your mum's executor sort her estate properly). Was mortgage actually in your name? Separate utilities supply and also council tax?

People commenting here that "of course" you should stay around and tell them to f off don't have key information. It's an odd expectation so something must be going on

MayThe4th · 22/05/2023 07:37

More info needed.

By saying you paid off the mortgage, doesn’t sound as if you bought the house, more that there was money owing on it and you paid it off. What was the arrangement after that? Did your parents transfer ownership of the property to you?

If you converted the house to flats what permissions did you have? Did you have planning permission to do the conversion? Are the two flats now registered individually in terms of paying council tax/electoral role purposes, What about the freehold? Who owns that?

I think you need to seek legal advice, because unless this was all done strictly according to the law you may not be in a position to sell the one flat and keep the other one anyway.

FirstnameSuesecondnamePerb · 22/05/2023 07:44

Honestly. So these brothers, having benefitted no doubt from you being right next to your parents for years, think the very second this no longer benefits them, you should sell your home and move?
Blimey.

GMsAWinner · 22/05/2023 07:45

You need to tell them it's an outright 'no' and you'll not be having any more conversations along those lines - the ground floor flat is yours in your own right and your home. It doesn't benefit anyone in family if it's sold. The upper flat can either be sold or a charge put on it, so care home fees can be claimed at a later date.

marshmallowmatcha · 22/05/2023 07:48

MayThe4th · 22/05/2023 07:37

More info needed.

By saying you paid off the mortgage, doesn’t sound as if you bought the house, more that there was money owing on it and you paid it off. What was the arrangement after that? Did your parents transfer ownership of the property to you?

If you converted the house to flats what permissions did you have? Did you have planning permission to do the conversion? Are the two flats now registered individually in terms of paying council tax/electoral role purposes, What about the freehold? Who owns that?

I think you need to seek legal advice, because unless this was all done strictly according to the law you may not be in a position to sell the one flat and keep the other one anyway.

Yes I think this is key here.

If all above board and your flat is a completely seperate entity with absolutely no ties then it is 100% yours. I would consider that your brother might have a point and you may get more for your parent's flat if your flat is also sold - you should keep all the money raised from your flat though. This will also hopefully be more than if your flat went on the market alone.

But if you are happy in your flat then I don't see why you should sell.

marshmallowmatcha · 22/05/2023 07:49

Rainallnight · 22/05/2023 07:22

Yes I think it depends. If it was a gift to OP (which is possible even with a mortgage - could have been for the works to the property or a part mortgage) then siblings would be justified in wanting an equal right to the inheritance.

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If it was a gift to OP then it is no longer inheritance. Inheritance is the deceased person estate.

Rainallnight · 22/05/2023 07:51

marshmallowmatcha · 22/05/2023 07:49

If it was a gift to OP then it is no longer inheritance. Inheritance is the deceased person estate.

Show quote history

Technically, yes. But thinking instead about parental assets, if OP got a gift the others didn’t, it was potentially storing up trouble for the future. Was it clear what was going to happen in this situation ?

Gtsr443 · 22/05/2023 07:51

Your parents' flat has already been sold to cover your dad's care fees?
When that money runs out the LA will pick up the tab.
So why do the brothers want you to sell your home that you own outright?
What has it got to do with them?

GracePalmer33 · 22/05/2023 07:53

I'm interested to know more info... it doesn't make sense if the flats were completely separated and owned individually. Why would your siblings want you to sell your home? Are they selling their homes too?
We need more info OP!

MargaretThursday · 22/05/2023 07:54

It's not quite as simple as "Op paid the mortgage" so it's fair.

Let's say the parents bought the house in the 70s for £60k. That's more than double my parent's house back then.
In the 90s OP's parents say "we'll make the house into two flats for us if you pay off the mortgage".
Going by what my parents had left on the mortgage, OP pays £6k to pay off the mortgage. Op's parents pay for the conversion.

OP gets a £300k flat (now)for paying £6k.

Is very different from: In the 90s Op and parents buy a £150k house together because the parents are too old to get a mortgage. Op pays half the renovations and the entire mortgage.

If it's the former, particularly if the house would be worth more sold as a whole (wouldn't round here, would near my parents) then I can see how the siblings resent it. Even if it's not the former, the siblings may think it's the former.

Anyotherdude · 22/05/2023 07:59

So, you purchased the flat and paid jointly for the conversion with your parents benefitting from both extra cash to live on/ pay their mortgage off completely, have lived as neighbours to your DParents (and presumably helped them out as they’ve e got older, what with being their on-site DC), and in the meantime you’ve paid off a mortgage, on a flat you have legally converted and now own outright, and your DB’s want you to move out?
Tell them to FO, OP - sale of your DP’s flat is for their care, not to line their greedy sons pockets!

nettie434 · 22/05/2023 08:00

FirstnameSuesecondnamePerb · 22/05/2023 07:44

Honestly. So these brothers, having benefitted no doubt from you being right next to your parents for years, think the very second this no longer benefits them, you should sell your home and move?
Blimey.

I think this is absolutely key. Maybe the OP did get the house at a preferential rate, but this needs to be taken into the equation too.

TwoBlueFish · 22/05/2023 08:02

They have no right to tell you to sell your flat. It sounds like your Dad won’t be coming home so it’s time to review everything to do with the conversion so that his flat is complete separate from yours.

My MIL converted her property to 2 flats in the 90’s and used to live in one and rent the other. When she died we found that both properties were still registered as one with land registry and water bill was shared. The water was a real pain to separate and both stopcocks are still in the lobby of the upper flat. We’re renting both out but when we want to sell we’ll need to do some extra work if we want to sell individually like working out the freehold.

BanditsOnTheHorizon · 22/05/2023 08:06

Surely you legally own the bottom flat. So no, if that's the case you shouldn't sell 'your flat' but selling your DF flat to pay for his care home will come in time anyway if his pension etc won't cover it. But there's no way I'd sell my home. Just because it's under your df flat doesn't mean it should be included, tell your db that if he's that bothered he could sell his house to help out too.

napody · 22/05/2023 08:06

I bet your brothers were noisily expressing their gratitude for you living downstairs from, and providing support and company for, your dad these past years. Saving them tons of worry and meaning less in-home care needed too. Or have they just piped up now...?

FatCatBum · 22/05/2023 08:08

Well if you own the downstairs flat just tell them to fuck of because it's not for sale and not up for discussion anymore than them selling one of their homes to pay for the care fees is.

marshmallowmatcha · 22/05/2023 08:08

MargaretThursday · 22/05/2023 07:54

It's not quite as simple as "Op paid the mortgage" so it's fair.

Let's say the parents bought the house in the 70s for £60k. That's more than double my parent's house back then.
In the 90s OP's parents say "we'll make the house into two flats for us if you pay off the mortgage".
Going by what my parents had left on the mortgage, OP pays £6k to pay off the mortgage. Op's parents pay for the conversion.

OP gets a £300k flat (now)for paying £6k.

Is very different from: In the 90s Op and parents buy a £150k house together because the parents are too old to get a mortgage. Op pays half the renovations and the entire mortgage.

If it's the former, particularly if the house would be worth more sold as a whole (wouldn't round here, would near my parents) then I can see how the siblings resent it. Even if it's not the former, the siblings may think it's the former.

Even if they do resent it they should shut their traps. Its between OP and her parents.

Nordicrain · 22/05/2023 08:09

well if you own your flat it doesn't really matter what they think, it's yours.

Were things done properly and the two properties legally defined? Why can't they just sell your DF's flat?

Wonnle · 22/05/2023 08:10

SequinsandStilettos · 22/05/2023 00:37

Makes no sense at all.
Your mum's flat will have to pay her care fees until it runs out.
No inheritance, such is life.
Your flat was/is separate and you have paid it off/it is your home.
Even if you got a good deal on it, your parents had the benefit of you being nearby.
Your brothers' suggestion makes zero sense.

Not the case about no inheritance , after any property is sold to pay fees you get left with 100K these days .

NoSquirrels · 22/05/2023 08:12

If they are 2 separate properties on 2 separate titles, and your Dad owns one and you and DH own the other, they can FOTTFSOF and keep going, presumably?

Do they intend to sell their own family homes? If not, why not? In for a penny in for a pound, eh - you can ALL sell up.

MargotBamborough · 22/05/2023 08:14

HeddaGarbled · 21/05/2023 23:38

New neighbours might be noisy or unpleasant.

Obviously you don’t have to move if you don’t want to, but there’s no need for “I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone”. They’re family, they’re involved in the sale of your parents’ flat, and exploring options and expressing opinions is not unreasonable.

Look at the pros and cons and then tell everyone what you’ve decided.

They're involved in decisions regarding their parents' flat but the OP's flat is none of their business and they are not entitled to an opinion about whether the OP should sell it or not.

They can volunteer to sell their own homes if they want to raise more money for care home fees.

Nevermind31 · 22/05/2023 08:15

If you own your property then your sibs can do f all.
they don’t have to find you somewhere to live because you own your place. Maybe suggest selling one of their homes?
but you might not enjoy the new neighbours.
maybe consider buying upstairs too?

MojacaSunset · 22/05/2023 08:16

Are they suggesting selling both to achieve a higher value which would give you more money to purchase another property and protect you from potential neighbour issues? If so that isn't a terrible suggestion.
If you have no intention of moving you just shut it down and go ahead with the sale of your fathets flat.
I'm not seeing the issue????

Tellmeimcrazy · 22/05/2023 08:17

HeddaGarbled · 21/05/2023 23:38

New neighbours might be noisy or unpleasant.

Obviously you don’t have to move if you don’t want to, but there’s no need for “I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone”. They’re family, they’re involved in the sale of your parents’ flat, and exploring options and expressing opinions is not unreasonable.

Look at the pros and cons and then tell everyone what you’ve decided.

I totally understand "go away and leave me alone". They are clearly pressuring her to sell her home that she paid off.
Sibs aren't offering to sell their properties. It's annoying.
Fair enough selling the parents flat but not the OPs home.

OP what about renting out your parents flat?

CabernetSauvignon · 22/05/2023 08:18

Impossible to give any view without knowing whether you have the flat under a separate title and a Land Registry document showing it's yours. If you haven't, your legal position could be very tricky.