Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

[SeriouslyTryadifferentstory]

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness.

My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

The poster is talking about a scam. For a small fee, the land registry will notify you if anyone registers an interest in the property you own. People have had their own properties sold or loans/equity taken out without their knowledge by scammers who register the property as their own and then sell it fraudulently ot take out finance secured against it.

At £23,000 a contribution is still required, with a top up from the LA. Once funds have reached £14500, the LA takes over the entire cost.

Yes been there recently. As far as I can see the flat is separate. But who owns freehold?

When I was arranging a care home for an elderly relative a few years ago, I found a very important distinction. This was in Wales, but I think it may apply in other parts of the UK too.

If you have the money available (maybe from selling the relative's house), then you'll pay the care home fees yourself – full fees. If on the other hand you don't have the money, the county council will pay the fees – and they will have negotiated reduced fees.

You then have to pay the council back after the relative dies, and you'll probably need to sell the house to get the money to pay them. But the total you pay will be less than if you had paid the care home directly.

This was a few years ago, so don't take my word for it – please check. But I hope this is helpful.

According to the terms of my elderly relative entering care, the home she owns jointly with her husband is disregarded for care fees as he is still living there. However, if the home is sold for any reason - downsizing or similar, the LA will then be able to recover the care costs. What is that if not a charge ?

Fuck me, of course you don’t sell your flat! You sell you parents flat and use that money to pay for his care home and you and your sisters manage it and any money left comes through the will. Money and inheritance splits families up. Of course there’s no way you sell your house and give him money, would he sell his house to fund your dads care home? Nope!

The world is full of people, especially relatives telling you what You should do

I just wanted to add a cautionary tale re siblings and wills. I had a situation a few years back when I had taken a career break and moved back home to look after my elderly parents. My father wanted to keep the house in the family but we had spent a lot of money on care in the home and taken on debt and it was logical to sell the house after my father died. My father's will provided that should it be necessary to sell the family home, that a property be bought for me from the proceeds. My siblings and the executors agreed to honour that provision if I moved out of the family home into temporary accommodation. So I agreed to do this, thinking I was protected by the provisions in the will. The home was then sold (against my wishes) for significantly less than the probate value, there was not enough money left over after all the other bequests and three years on, I am still in the temporary accommodation. The moral of the story is you definitely can't trust your siblings to do the decent thing in such circumstances.

Take independent legal advice - do not allow yourself to be bullied by your brothers - as you say, your partner has a chronic illness so moving will have a deep impact on him - the State will use funds from the estate of your father to pay his care home fees, after that they will step in - they will not come after your assets IF those assets are LEGALLY yours - from the information you've give about your mortgage etc, it sounds as if the property is wholly yours. Keep your sister onside, she sounds like she's sticking up for you. Try not to get too stressed about this unpleasantness - inheritances can have a toxic effect on the most surprising people! I wish you the very best of luck.

I expect your brother 'finding you somewhere to live' would be renting back your flat as an easy sitting tenant... at full rent of course! But you would loose access to the garden as of course it isn't yours anymore. (Of and by the way can you look after the flat above as you are nearer...)

I'de be tempted to get the estate agent to value your flat separately and the whole building as one... I think you'll find the value of the two separate flats is higher. (Who has the freehold in all of this?)

Stand your ground, your partner isn't well and moving house is really stressful, so this wouldn't help him.
Do you have to sell there flat or could you rent it? If you live in a costal area or somewhere people go on holiday, you could rent it out as a holiday let, yoy can charge daft prices for a holiday let , so would get more than normal rent, then in the off season, maybe do a short term rent 6 months to cover his bills.
You live close by so could keep an eye on the property.

It wouldn't be wise to do a 6 months let, because you would then be in the realms of assured shorthold tenancies. If no fault eviction becomes law you wouldn't be able to repossess the property after the 6 months and could not use it as a holiday let. One or the other not both.

I suspect the brothers buying both flats to let out and convert part of the garden into parking is a ruse. For starters BTL mortgages are bloody costly now, does either brother have the means to purchase either flat?

Call me cynical, but I believe brother A is wired with indignation that OP & her DH bought the flat from their parents for market value in the 90s and now enjoy the increase in value and being mortgage free. He wants OP to sell her flat so he and brother B can then continue their bullying tactics by trying to brow beat OP into accepting a smaller property thats not worth much more than what she bought the ground floor flat for in the 90s, then he’ll conveniently suggest that what’s left after they’ve found OP “somewhere to live” isn’t added to the funds from the top flat sale, but divided between the four siblings, so he gets his mawlers on a share of OPs equity 🤔

Its not a charge, because there is no first order charge on the deeds only a claim on assets other than the disregarded house, if he sells whilst she is still living then that liquidates the asset and the financial assessment will be re-calculated. Normally the LA will allow the move and take the excess cash from the sale into account for her fees.
But if she passes away, the arrangement ends then he keeps it (depending on the terms of her will of course) if he then sells at a later point nothing is taken.
Importantly, unlike a DPA the disregard arrangements do not incur any fees, and critically any money released is entirely under his control, with a DPA it is not, so its a better situation for him.

The problem with letting the flat, assuming you take out a DPA, when he dies, the DPA has to be paid back within 90 days (or at least visible action to repay needs to be seen) so, you would end up trying to evict the tennant at the same time as settle the DPA.

Holiday let, Air BnB much better, probably make more too.

No shame, disgusting and disrespectful

Absolutely

You do not have any idea what my situation is and yes they will need my inheritance to put down for a deposit on a home. That’s why me and my husband worked so bloody hard for.

When I worked I never had a rise in 7 years, it was truly tough, so I resent your bloody attitude.

Unlike Holly Golightly who trusted in the generosity of strangers, one can rely on the deviousness of relatives.

No idea of your situation, but if you are concerned about preserving at least some inheritance for your children, talk to a solicitor. There are some methods that reduce the likelihood of all the assets being gobbled up, too complex to go into and very case specific in any case - be wary of too good to be true schemes as they don't work!

Hands up who would like their tax to be used to pay someone's care fees whilst they squirrel money away for their children? Its not just the wealthy that are morally bankrupt.

Absolutely not suggesting that, there are some simple and quite legitimate steps that any parent can make to ring fence an inheritance, but it won't deprive the tax payer much in most cases, if anything.

One common method is, say Bernie and Anne want to give their kids the best chance of an inheritance, they can change ownership of their home to tenants in common, change their wills to girt their tenancy to their child rather than each other, with a life interest for the surviving spouse. If both go into care then both pay fees from their half, if Bernie dies first the kids get his half and when Anne goes into care her half pays - all fair.

Another method is gifts, parents can make gifts to the children up to a particular ammount every year. say Bernie and Anne own the home as tenants in common they can create a third tenancy in the childs name and gift a percentage of the equity to them every year, with a life interest.

Nothing illegal or dodgy in either of those, just sound financial planning, many neglect funerals, care, pensions etc., you can't blame those who plan ahead for later life for being prudent.

I can understand why people are very annoyed about paying for care in old age. The £23,500 the state allows you to retain before stepping is is very little these days. I have worked since 16, funded my degree myself and never claimed benefits. We have never been extravagant.I would like to think that my children would get a reasonable inheritance when I die. My aunt and uncle spent every penny they had and had all care paid for. In fairness, self payers do get a choice of care home but subsidise the council funded residents in many cases. It’s about time the amount taken is capped but the government are being very quiet on this and it won’t cover residential costs. As ever it’s the ‘squeezed middle’ who suffer, if you’re seriously rich it doesn’t matter. If you have nothing you’re paid for.

they can change ownership of their home to tenants in common, change their wills to girt their tenancy to their child rather than each other, with a life interest for the surviving spouse. If both go into care then both pay fees from their half, if Bernie dies first the kids get his half and when Anne goes into care her half pays - all fair.

Anyone who does this is mad. Firstly because local authorities have been onto it for years and it would be seen as deprivation of assets. Secondly because it’s a good way of not maximising IHT benefits.