Page 27 | Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 2023-05-21T22:15:43+00:00

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness. My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone. Sorry, just needed to vent.

Blossomtoes · 23/05/2023 22:35

I will not sell my house to go into a home ever

It’s unlikely to be your decision. Most people who move into care homes are unable to live independently because they have dementia. I don’t understand your reasoning, if you live in a care home you no longer need your house.

tonyatotter · 23/05/2023 22:40

Rosscameasdoody · 23/05/2023 17:59

It’s not the OP’s home, it’s her fathers’. She owns one of the two flats the house was converted to. For info, most LA’s will only disregard the main home if the person who is still resident is the partner of the person going into care. They will only consider other direct family members if they are over 60, are incapacitated, have no other residence, and have lived in the property before the person went into care. A charge will still be placed on the property until such time as it’s sold, and care fees will be recovered along with any charges or interest accrued.

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Disregard means just that, if a property is disregarded, either mandatorily or dscretionally, it forms no part of the care assessment and no charge can be placed.

Often LAs, shall we say, encourage the spouse or other party to sign up to a DPA, which then creates a first order charge against the land registry and makes their life (the LA) very easy.

It is very, very difficult to get a charge placed without all joint owners consent, it would require an order from the high court, the judge would have to consider the effect on all parties and the intent in forming the joint ownership and interest of the other parties - there is good precedent to prevent a charge being made, as a previous poster said, they shared their home with parent and told the LA to bog off, which they duely did

tonyatotter · 23/05/2023 22:44

Blossomtoes · 23/05/2023 22:35

I will not sell my house to go into a home ever

It’s unlikely to be your decision. Most people who move into care homes are unable to live independently because they have dementia. I don’t understand your reasoning, if you live in a care home you no longer need your house.

If you live alone, you can take a DPA, this means the house will be yours until you die, but, whilst you are in the home someone will have to deal with looking after it, and someone will have to sell it later on.

It is advised if you do take a lifetime DPA you let your executor know what they are letting themselves in for in liquidating it all inside 90 days, they may decline to be executor of such an estate, I would!

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 23:11

changeme4this · 23/05/2023 22:05

If you dad doesn’t have funds to pay for his care, then yes his portion of the property has to be sold. Put it on the property market and if your brother/s want to buy it, allow them first right of refusal and have that noted in the agents contract.

as far as your own property is concerned, it’s clearly out of the picture as being an asset gifted from your posts. Perhaps your brothers this explained again? Do you think they are more peeved that your parents spent money on travels and it’s looking less likely there will be an inheritance for anyone down the track?

my mum is nearly through the sale proceeds of the family home for her care costs. Not sure what to do when she runs out…

As long as she is in a home that does not need topping up you don't need to do anything. Also isn't she allowed to keep around 15,000? not sure the exact amount.

mumwon · 23/05/2023 23:12

Check inland registry in case your db decide to try to get a loan on your property and your dads you can request (it has a small cost) that they contact you if they or anyone else does this.

tonyatotter · 23/05/2023 23:15

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 23:11

As long as she is in a home that does not need topping up you don't need to do anything. Also isn't she allowed to keep around 15,000? not sure the exact amount.

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Around 23,000 in England

saraclara · 23/05/2023 23:17

mumwon · 23/05/2023 23:12

Check inland registry in case your db decide to try to get a loan on your property and your dads you can request (it has a small cost) that they contact you if they or anyone else does this.

How can the brothers get a loan on a property they don't own? They can't, any more than I can get a loan against your property.

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 23:32

ArdeteiMasazxu · 23/05/2023 20:44

Apologies for the total digression from the point if the thread, but:
@Alinino124 since you ask, I shall explain.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 1950-1960 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 1950-60. At that time life expectancy was circa 65 years and less than 8% of the population was over 60 so there was enough to go around.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 1970-1980 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 1970-80. At that time life expectancy was circa 70 years and around 10% of the population was over 60 so things were a little more stretched.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 2010-2020 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 2010-20. At that time life expectancy was circa 81 years and around 20% of the population was over 60 so things were getting seriously unbalanced. Increasing retirement age very slightly didn't really help much.

Those contributions you made over 50 years are spent. They went on your own parents, aunts and uncles. That money is gone.

The people expected to pay for those who are too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 2020-30 are those in work now - that is, people in the gig economy who are making a pittance because their employers have found loopholes in the law to underpay them and fiddle the books to avoid NI contributions. So surprise surprise there's not nearly enough money.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's where your money has gone and there's not a thing you can do about it short of total socialist revolution (and I don't think that would solve it either)

Going back to the 1950s and tying pension age to "life expectancy minus 2 years" would help, if you can get a time machine.

Failing that, some kind of system where each generation of elderly pool their resources in some way so that those unfortunate enough to need decades of care get supported in some way by the wealth of those who manage to die without needing expensive care, to even-out the peaks and troughs of the extremes of good fortune and bad fortune. But any time something sensible like that is suggested the tabloids start screeching about a "death tax" and the politicians can't make it happen, so the spiral into total collapse continues.

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Long term care is one thing but what about the actual pensions? Post war baby boomers and public sector final salary schemes?

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 23:34

tonyatotter · 23/05/2023 23:15

Around 23,000 in England

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Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact amount. I don't expect that would last long in a top up home.

JustBeKindItsEasy · 24/05/2023 00:38

Daleksatemyshed · 23/05/2023 19:49

Eh Gods @JustBeKindItsEasy your DB and SIL are awful people ( and I'm sorry to say that about your family) but how can anyone justify that to themselves? When my DM was passing away in hopital I tried to call my elder Sister but to no avail. When she called back later she was more interested in taking about my DN moving house then our DM's death. I inherited everything from my DM and would have felt guilty about it but that 'phone call wiped away any trace of guilt like magic.

How sad our siblings showed their true selves at a time when we needed them the most.

That saying ‘ blood is thicker than water is a loud of crap isn’t it ‘

Onwards and upwards

changeme4this · 24/05/2023 02:01

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 23:11

As long as she is in a home that does not need topping up you don't need to do anything. Also isn't she allowed to keep around 15,000? not sure the exact amount.

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She isn’t in the Uk and yes there is quite a top up involved.
Yes there is a law which gives a resident a minimum amount they can retain asset wise, but there are no private hospitals anywhere near the general area that don’t require the top up and there are big waiting lists at the suitable premises further away (80 klms).

as the population grows older than in the past, there just isn’t enough accommodation to provide for everyone…

Theyreallydidaskthat · 24/05/2023 02:19

changeme4this · 24/05/2023 02:01

She isn’t in the Uk and yes there is quite a top up involved.
Yes there is a law which gives a resident a minimum amount they can retain asset wise, but there are no private hospitals anywhere near the general area that don’t require the top up and there are big waiting lists at the suitable premises further away (80 klms).

as the population grows older than in the past, there just isn’t enough accommodation to provide for everyone…

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Sorry to hear that. We are going to have to get a little more creative.

changeme4this · 24/05/2023 02:28

Theyreallydidaskthat · 24/05/2023 02:19

Sorry to hear that. We are going to have to get a little more creative.

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Thankyou.

yes it’s a growing industry housing the old and infirm and throw in mobility issues (mum requires a medical hoist and is assessed as being at hospital level care) so private, share holder funded retirement complexes are booming and they know how to charge…

but for all of us getting older or having parents and grandparents, finding availability is hard and I would urge people to get on lists before you need to worry about it. I think mum’s has a 10 year waiting list now with preference given to those in the more independent sections of the complex.

user1492757084 · 24/05/2023 05:54

Stay where you are living for no other reason than that you love to live in that flat in that area. It is your home, with good connections and paid for, and you didn't have any intention of moving.
You can't be bullied so don't be bullied.

Try not to hold a grudge to your family but refuse to speak about your living arrangements.
Say - Do I always badger you about where you live?

Wishing you all the best.

Nanaof1 · 24/05/2023 06:56

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 12:07

My brothers want to sell both flats and split the proceeds 50/50. As I own the bigger flat with its own large garden, I'd effectively be giving money to Dad.

Dad is in his late 90s, has severe dementia among many other health issues and quite honestly could pop off at any moment. Any money he leaves will be split equally 4 ways. So by selling my flat and giving some of the proceeds to Dad I could actually be increasing my brothers inheritance.

Thank you all for your input. Its forced me to think properly about what I want to do, rather than just getting upset about my brothers.

I hope you keep your house. Your brothers do not have the right to try and get you to sell your only home. There is zero reason to do that. Why don't your brothers sell their homes if they want your Dad to have the money?

Sorry, but I have a feeling your brothers would have no problem screwing you over if it helps them.

youveturnedupwelldone · 24/05/2023 07:11

Goodness, money really brings the worst out in people doesn't it.

You only have one problem here and it's your brother. They can't force you to sell the property.

Im baffled that anyone thinks OP has any sort of obligation to "make good" on the "inheritance"! Firstly, no one has died so there is no inheritance. Secondly, dad benefitted from the sale of the flat already.

Mind you, I'm constantly baffled by people on mumsnet. I shouldn't think ANYONE would actually sell their own home at their brothers' behest in practice!

Iwanttobeagranny · 24/05/2023 07:36

Haven’t read all the comments but I’m sure others will say the same…it’s not a whole house, it’s 2 flats owned by 2 different people so it would be 2 separate sales.

Ginmonkeyagain · 24/05/2023 07:48

@Alinino124 problem is there is far fewer of us than there are of you - there is a reason why it was called the baby boom.

Also as has been pointed out the state never factored in social care. When the NHS was founded it was assumed social care would be performed by the family - usually by daughter or daughter in law. The wealthy may have hired private nurses.

Aslanplustwo · 24/05/2023 08:17

ArdeteiMasazxu · 23/05/2023 21:43

Only true if it's a home that accepts council basic rate with no top-up.

Nicer homes with higher fees may accept self-funding residents and then when their own money runs out and council funding kicks in, they can require a top up. If that's not paid they can and do evict the 90 year old dementia patient to a cheaper home that the council rate will fully fund.

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That's terrible!! Once again, I'm so grateful I don't live in the UK, our system is much fairer than that. Here you self-fund until you reach a certain amount of your own money left (MUCH higher than in England), and then the government pays. You would only pay yourself if you were in a home not aligned with a health board - in the town I live in all of them are (and all but one are privately owned).

Merrily123 · 24/05/2023 08:40

Can you not rent out your parents' flat to cover the fees?

ArdeteiMasazxu · 24/05/2023 08:48

Merrily123 · 24/05/2023 08:40

Can you not rent out your parents' flat to cover the fees?

This suggestion is becoming this thread's "cancel the cheque"

The rental income for a 1 bed flat will bring in around a quarter of the required care fees. The flat needs to be sold.

tonyatotter · 24/05/2023 08:57

ArdeteiMasazxu · 24/05/2023 08:48

This suggestion is becoming this thread's "cancel the cheque"

The rental income for a 1 bed flat will bring in around a quarter of the required care fees. The flat needs to be sold.

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It doesn't have to be, as its vacant (or will be) the OP can take out a DPA with the local authority, rent the flat in the meantime and use that income for a top up - however as the OPs DF is in poor health and in his 90's it would have to be on a short tenancy or air bnb basis as when he dies the DPA will have to be settled.

If her father enters care via the LA system the first 12 weeks are disregarded (free to the father), the idea of this is to allow things to be sorted out and a funding plan put in place.

The other option is that the sisters, having LPA purchase the flat on a but to let mortgage. They can't sell it to themselves (thats against the rules) so would have to appoint a solicitor to act as a trustee to do the sale, thats not as complex or expensive as it sounds, its just a rule to prevent attorney holders from selling themselves property below value.

CabernetSauvignon · 24/05/2023 09:10

What if he hadn’t owned his home? Yeah he’d be in the same care home getting the same care and the state would be paying.

Not necessarily. If the LA is paying it tends to look for the cheapest care home available, which may not be the one he was in when he was funding himself.

ArdeteiMasazxu · 24/05/2023 09:16

But what possible reason is there for not selling the flat? Even if the OP&Sis are the buyers (via a solicitor as you say), or if the CF brothers are, the effect on the dad's financial affairs are the same.

The only rational reason to keep the flat in dad's name with a DPA in place, in this scenario, would be if property prices are rising faster than the interest which is added if a DPA is taken out. They aren't.

Beautiful3 · 24/05/2023 09:25

I'm glad you've told your brother that. I wouldn't give my hard earned home to someone to profit from, on the basis of a promised home elsewhere! You might end up in a terrible one. All that money youd have to spend on removal, stamp duty, solicitors etc That's just stupid and crazy. It's your home, why on earth make yourselves homeless, just because your brother's greedy. Just stay put and ignore him. He doesn't have good intentions at heart.