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AIBU?

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Original poster

Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

731 replies

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 21/05/2023 23:15

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness.

My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

OP posts:
Bignanny30 · 23/05/2023 21:07

Yeah it may be worth more if sold as one house rather than two flats BUT whilst you still have the money from the sale then the authorities will keep taking that money to pay your dad’s care home fees. If you only have the money from the sale of HIS flat then once that has run out, his fees will be paid by the state. So he’ll still be cared for and you will still have your home. It’s such an unjust system anyway. Your parents worked and paid to buy their home and paid their taxes along the way, yet now your dad’s forced to pay again. What if he hadn’t owned his home? Yeah he’d be in the same care home getting the same care and the state would be paying. Believe me I’ve been through all of this ! 😡

BonjourCrisette · 23/05/2023 21:09

whilst you still have the money from the sale then the authorities will keep taking that money to pay your dad’s care home fees

Don't be silly. That money would be hers, not her father's. She owns the flat she lives in.

SoShallINever · 23/05/2023 21:16

Sillyname63 · 23/05/2023 20:23

Ask them why do they need to get a better price for the flat , if they are selling to cover care home fees they are unlikely to see much of the money any way and if your father is still alive once the money runs out the local authority takes over the payment. Just as a secondary thing you mentioned your dad is suffering from a chronic condition if that condition is life limiting he may be entitled to continuing care and this means his fees are paid by the authorities anyway. I am sure a nice in flat in an area with good transport links and walking distance to amenities would be snapped up quicker than a property with two flats as that is more a niche market.

True but continuing health care funding is very hard to get. You need to be very disabled indeed, to qualify. I'd hate to raise the OP's hopes as the vast majority of nursing home patients do not qualify for this.

Mummyoflittledragon · 23/05/2023 21:18

ArdeteiMasazxu · 23/05/2023 20:44

Apologies for the total digression from the point if the thread, but:
@Alinino124 since you ask, I shall explain.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 1950-1960 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 1950-60. At that time life expectancy was circa 65 years and less than 8% of the population was over 60 so there was enough to go around.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 1970-1980 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 1970-80. At that time life expectancy was circa 70 years and around 10% of the population was over 60 so things were a little more stretched.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 2010-2020 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 2010-20. At that time life expectancy was circa 81 years and around 20% of the population was over 60 so things were getting seriously unbalanced. Increasing retirement age very slightly didn't really help much.

Those contributions you made over 50 years are spent. They went on your own parents, aunts and uncles. That money is gone.

The people expected to pay for those who are too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 2020-30 are those in work now - that is, people in the gig economy who are making a pittance because their employers have found loopholes in the law to underpay them and fiddle the books to avoid NI contributions. So surprise surprise there's not nearly enough money.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's where your money has gone and there's not a thing you can do about it short of total socialist revolution (and I don't think that would solve it either)

Going back to the 1950s and tying pension age to "life expectancy minus 2 years" would help, if you can get a time machine.

Failing that, some kind of system where each generation of elderly pool their resources in some way so that those unfortunate enough to need decades of care get supported in some way by the wealth of those who manage to die without needing expensive care, to even-out the peaks and troughs of the extremes of good fortune and bad fortune. But any time something sensible like that is suggested the tabloids start screeching about a "death tax" and the politicians can't make it happen, so the spiral into total collapse continues.

Show quote history

Exactly. And I own my own home. I know how this works and much as it pains me to sell our homes for our care, it is the only way.

saraclara · 23/05/2023 21:20

My mother had a massive stroke, is paralysed down one side, in constant pain and is largely helpless. She still doesn't get continuous healthcare funding. Her care over 13 years has burned through all her savings and two houses.

I've never come across anyone who's been funded.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 23/05/2023 21:24

My MIL was funded for a couple of years as she had serious pressure sores that meant she met the criteria (I can't remember what it was now, it was a couple of years ago)

T1Dmama · 23/05/2023 21:33

No one can force you to sell your part of the house. If you don’t want to sell it tell them to buggar off!

only your dads flat can be used to pay the home… and they don’t need to ‘find you somewhere to live, you either stay put or use YOUR money from the sale of YOUR flat and buy somewhere else!

I’m guessing he’s thinking you’ll get much more money selling the house as a whole house rather then just the flat upstairs as a flat??

Can you not rent it out and use that money to pay the homes fees?

ArdeteiMasazxu · 23/05/2023 21:43

Rosscameasdoody · 23/05/2023 20:49

Relatives have no obligation to pay care home fees and LA’s cannot force them to.

Show quote history

Only true if it's a home that accepts council basic rate with no top-up.

Nicer homes with higher fees may accept self-funding residents and then when their own money runs out and council funding kicks in, they can require a top up. If that's not paid they can and do evict the 90 year old dementia patient to a cheaper home that the council rate will fully fund.

T1Dmama · 23/05/2023 21:45

SoShallINever · 23/05/2023 21:16

True but continuing health care funding is very hard to get. You need to be very disabled indeed, to qualify. I'd hate to raise the OP's hopes as the vast majority of nursing home patients do not qualify for this.

Show quote history

Op’s husband has a chronic illness… not her dad

Thesharkradar · 23/05/2023 21:54

Failing that, some kind of system where each generation of elderly pool their resources in some way....
OR, we get together a posse, and we trash the tax havens and burgle the billionaires, thats where all the money's gone 😡

T1Dmama · 23/05/2023 21:55

Out of interest OP.. who owns the leasehold on the house? As the bottom flat do you own it and the upstairs is freehold?

T1Dmama · 23/05/2023 22:00

T1Dmama · 23/05/2023 21:55

Out of interest OP.. who owns the leasehold on the house? As the bottom flat do you own it and the upstairs is freehold?

Sorry I mean do you own the land so whoever buys the flat upstairs is leasehold and has to pay you a fee?
I wonder if this is what your cunning brother is thinking… he could be thinking the flats are both sold but he secretly keeps hold of the leasehold.

I read your post and think it’s naive of him to assume he can just convert the garden into parking spaces without planning permission of some sort … which the neighbours would kick off about and would likely be refused

Teenagehorrorbag · 23/05/2023 22:00

Late to the thread, but please please please don't even consider giving into them, ever! As you acknowledge, it's only because they want to buy it and make loads of money from your garden! Nothing to do in any way with your dad or what is right.

Round here two flats would be worth more than a single house anyway - might be worth getting the estate agent to quote for both scenarios just so you are fore-armed with that info if it should be needed? Not that it's relevant..... (and chuck it in the bin if I'm wrong).

You paid full price for the flat at the time and if it hadn't been you it would have been someone else. Don't be bullied - and if you have to stay NC then so be it. Family like that is not worth calling family. Stay strong.

Idratherbepaddleboarding · 23/05/2023 22:01

Well done for standing your ground! Make sure to keep it this way, you’d brother is a cheeky fucker!

changeme4this · 23/05/2023 22:05

If you dad doesn’t have funds to pay for his care, then yes his portion of the property has to be sold. Put it on the property market and if your brother/s want to buy it, allow them first right of refusal and have that noted in the agents contract.

as far as your own property is concerned, it’s clearly out of the picture as being an asset gifted from your posts. Perhaps your brothers this explained again? Do you think they are more peeved that your parents spent money on travels and it’s looking less likely there will be an inheritance for anyone down the track?

my mum is nearly through the sale proceeds of the family home for her care costs. Not sure what to do when she runs out…

changeme4this · 23/05/2023 22:06

Need this explaining ^

Alinino124 · 23/05/2023 22:08

Ok so my money has gone, there are still plenty of people in work, millions in fact, they should be paying for us pensioners now should we need care, their wages have not gone up that much agree, but they are still paying the same amount of contributions percentage wise. We were told we will be looked after, as I said before, from Cradle to Grave. I will not sell my house to go into a home ever, I would rather take a long walk of a short pier.

Dibbydoos · 23/05/2023 22:11

HeddaGarbled · 21/05/2023 23:25

If it’s worth more as a whole house than two separate flats, it’s worthy of consideration.

Highly. UNlikely thats why houses get converted to flats in the fiest place!

Op, tell them to go do one. You own it outright it's nowt to do with them.

WeAreTheHeroes · 23/05/2023 22:14

Two flats in the same building are usually worth more than a single house when properly converted. The only reason they're trying to bully you to sell your flat to them is because it has the garden. Greed brings out the worst in people. Good for you and your sister telling them where to go. I think your dad was pretty canny when he gave you both power of attorney.

saraclara · 23/05/2023 22:16

Alinino124 · 23/05/2023 22:08

Ok so my money has gone, there are still plenty of people in work, millions in fact, they should be paying for us pensioners now should we need care, their wages have not gone up that much agree, but they are still paying the same amount of contributions percentage wise. We were told we will be looked after, as I said before, from Cradle to Grave. I will not sell my house to go into a home ever, I would rather take a long walk of a short pier.

My kids generation has had it far harder than me. So no, I don't think the next generation should be paying for me. I will resent my savings and my house going to pay for any care needs, so that I can't leave either to my kids, and I do resent people who've not been savers or sensible with their money, getting their care paid for while I won't. But that's how it is and I don't see an answer to it.

Bot my MIL and my Mum need/ed care that took every penny of their savings and the full value of their houses, so no inheritance for mefrom either set of parents. On the other hand, my friends have had three large inheritances, from her Mum, his mum and a single and childless aunt, all who died without having any care needs.
It's a lottery, frankly.

Wooky073 · 23/05/2023 22:21

You don’t have to sell the whole house if you legally own your part of it. Nor do you have to sell your parents part of the house. There is another option worth exploring which is deferred payments I think it’s called. A legal charge is put into your parents property, by the council who pay the fees in the meantime. After your dad passes the council want their money back and your parents house is sold then, it’s worth looking into as it gives a bit of time to take the pressure off any immediate decisions. Age concern have some great faxtageets about the various ways of finding care. Good luck ! X

dunBle · 23/05/2023 22:22

Alinino124 · 23/05/2023 22:08

Ok so my money has gone, there are still plenty of people in work, millions in fact, they should be paying for us pensioners now should we need care, their wages have not gone up that much agree, but they are still paying the same amount of contributions percentage wise. We were told we will be looked after, as I said before, from Cradle to Grave. I will not sell my house to go into a home ever, I would rather take a long walk of a short pier.

But pensioners now form a much larger percentage of the population than they used to, and their care needs are generally much greater as they get older, so the contributions are spread much more thinly than before. You're not going to need your house once you go into a care home, and your kids will likely be middle-aged or older by then, so it's highly unlikely they're going to be keeping your home to live on in themselves.

Idratherbepaddleboarding · 23/05/2023 22:25

Alinino124 · 23/05/2023 22:08

Ok so my money has gone, there are still plenty of people in work, millions in fact, they should be paying for us pensioners now should we need care, their wages have not gone up that much agree, but they are still paying the same amount of contributions percentage wise. We were told we will be looked after, as I said before, from Cradle to Grave. I will not sell my house to go into a home ever, I would rather take a long walk of a short pier.

What a shitty attitude. I need my paltry wages that haven’t gone up in 10 years to pay for food and bills thank you.

tonyatotter · 23/05/2023 22:32

changeme4this · 23/05/2023 22:06

Need this explaining ^

Was she assessed by the LA?, normal procedure is the LA do an assessment of the estate, issue a Deferred Payment Agreement and begin paying the fees after the mandatory 12 week free period (the disregard), if she was then when the funds she has hit 23,000 they will take over paying the fees.

If she is in a particularly expensive home they can at their discretion move her.

If she was never in the system her finances will need to be assessed by the LA and they will take over at the appropriate time.

Generally people who have in excess of £300,000 at the time of going into care, and who don't go via the LA (ie go private) buy a lifetime annuity to pay their fees, this never runs out.