Page 25 | Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 2023-05-21T22:15:43+00:00

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness. My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone. Sorry, just needed to vent.

Daleksatemyshed · 23/05/2023 19:49

Eh Gods @JustBeKindItsEasy your DB and SIL are awful people ( and I'm sorry to say that about your family) but how can anyone justify that to themselves? When my DM was passing away in hopital I tried to call my elder Sister but to no avail. When she called back later she was more interested in taking about my DN moving house then our DM's death. I inherited everything from my DM and would have felt guilty about it but that 'phone call wiped away any trace of guilt like magic.

Alinino124 · 23/05/2023 19:54

Me and my husband paid almost a 100 years of contributions to be looked after from “cradle to grave” maybe you are too young to remember the promise made to us by the nhs. You are only jealous because you obvs don’t own your own home.
we worked hard all our lives to leave something to our children. Why should the government not pay they have our money. WHERE THE FRICKING hell is that money. Pray tell me.

TerfIngOnTheBeach · 23/05/2023 19:56

saraclara · 23/05/2023 18:15

Then your post makes no sense. The brothers suggesting that the whole house is sold cannot make things get difficult. The house no longer exists as a property in itself. The building now cotains two separate flats, registered separately with the Lanr Registry, and owned by two different people. The brothers do not have POA and can do absolutely nothing about it. The only trouble they can make is emotional, such as A calling OP a selfish bitch.

Your help made no sense given the information that OP has clearly given.

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This. 👍

diddl · 23/05/2023 19:56

Just wondering-would they even have been able to turn part of the garden into a car park?

It amazes me how some people immediately think of trying to make money for themselves in these situations.

I hope that your Dad is as settled as possible where he is.

Dementia can be complete bastard.

declutteringmymind · 23/05/2023 19:58

Omg. Sell the upstairs to your sister and if or when you and DH want to move you can do the parking conversion.

LongDarkTeatime · 23/05/2023 20:02

Really feeling for you @SeriouslyTryadifferentstory
Family can get to you like no one else in my experience. I have a very difficult sibling. As soon as our DFs estate is sorted I’m looking forward to cutting them out of my life again. It’s more common than you think.
Take care of yourself x

JudgeJ · 23/05/2023 20:10

Pipsquiggle · 22/05/2023 13:31

@SeriouslyTryadifferentstory

But do your brothers know this?

If your dad has dementia and has been talking to your brothers, he could have been telling them any old shit.

I remember a relative of mine with dementia saying he was spy and helped free the hostages at the Iranian Embassy siege in London ............... he actually lived in Bolton and was a plasterer

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Living in Bolton and moon-lighting as a plasterer could have been very good cover, we used a plasterer in Bolton who would go missing for days on end!!!!!!!!!!!

Premiumbondbaby · 23/05/2023 20:13

@SeriouslyTryadifferentstory wow your brothers are something else.

I just had a thought, it is worth getting legal advice about the freehold. You may be able to sell your Dad’s flat as leasehold and you retain the whole freehold. Obviously this may devalue your Dad’s flat slightly so you would need to buy your Dad’s freehold at market rate.

Whilst owning the whole freehold would give you some extra responsibilities it would also give you some benefits. Buildings insurance - your responsibility to arrange but you get to choose provider and control cost. Maintenance of the property - cost is split but you get to choose builder, schedule, timing and cost. Service charge - both flats pay a monthly/quarterly charge into a dedicated account that is used to fund maintenance, cleaning of shared areas. You would get to approve any changes e.g. upstairs flat building into the loft. As a pp mentioned specifying the type of flooring permitted/not permitted in the upstairs flat.

There are pros and cons to this approach so you need to understand them and the cost before proceeding.

JudgeJ · 23/05/2023 20:15

If the upper flat is sold for their father's care home fees then the OP needs to kept constantly up to date on how the funds are being used and in the event of their father's care not using all the proceeds from the flat she needs to make sure that she gets the correct percentage of the residue as the siblings sound to be graspers.

CabernetSauvignon · 23/05/2023 20:18

JudgeJ · 23/05/2023 20:15

If the upper flat is sold for their father's care home fees then the OP needs to kept constantly up to date on how the funds are being used and in the event of their father's care not using all the proceeds from the flat she needs to make sure that she gets the correct percentage of the residue as the siblings sound to be graspers.

OP and her sister are attorneys, so she should be able to control this completely.

Sillyname63 · 23/05/2023 20:23

Ask them why do they need to get a better price for the flat , if they are selling to cover care home fees they are unlikely to see much of the money any way and if your father is still alive once the money runs out the local authority takes over the payment. Just as a secondary thing you mentioned your dad is suffering from a chronic condition if that condition is life limiting he may be entitled to continuing care and this means his fees are paid by the authorities anyway. I am sure a nice in flat in an area with good transport links and walking distance to amenities would be snapped up quicker than a property with two flats as that is more a niche market.

Rosscameasdoody · 23/05/2023 20:26

Clymene · 23/05/2023 18:09

No you're wrong @Rosscameasdoody

The OP has been very clear: To be clear, the property was separated legally into two flats, with separate entrances. Each has its own utilities and council tax is paid per flat, not on the house as a whole.

It is two homes - a house divided into flats, each of them are separate dwellings. Her father (and her brothers) have no claim on her property.

Which is exactly what I said. Where exactly am I wrong ?

Hoppysue · 23/05/2023 20:26

If sell your dads flat and use it to pay for care home fees, anything left over would be split 3 ways between you and 2 brothers. Your flat is NOTHING to do with them!!!

Rosscameasdoody · 23/05/2023 20:28

Alinino124 · 23/05/2023 19:54

Me and my husband paid almost a 100 years of contributions to be looked after from “cradle to grave” maybe you are too young to remember the promise made to us by the nhs. You are only jealous because you obvs don’t own your own home.
we worked hard all our lives to leave something to our children. Why should the government not pay they have our money. WHERE THE FRICKING hell is that money. Pray tell me.

I’m not too young to remember. The ‘cradle to grave’ didn’t cover elderly care - only NHS and welfare.

Rosscameasdoody · 23/05/2023 20:33

Meandspottydogs · 23/05/2023 17:54

I did read the thread.

I also read that family members were suggesting selling the whole property, so the op needs to be fully armed in her defence if things get difficult. Trying to help here, no need for rudeness

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It’s not rude to point out that you’ve misunderstood. The house was converted into two flats. The OP purchased one at full market value with a mortgage. Both registered separately with land registry and two properties registered with LA for council tax. The only difficulty is making her brothers understand that she has no liability and no intention of selling her home so that they can fleece her.

SpringSummerDreamer · 23/05/2023 20:36

YANBU, this was all sorted at the time of the original split. What your parents had sold the bottom flat to a stranger? Would your brothers be trying to bully them into selling? No, stick to your guns!

riceuten · 23/05/2023 20:37

WickedSerious · 21/05/2023 23:20

What's their reasoning for wanting you to sell the whole house?

They’d presumably get more money and would ‘forget’ about finding you somewhere to live (financed out of your own pocket no doubt)

Noangelbuthavingfun · 23/05/2023 20:38

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 20:56

I've spoken to my sister who has spoken to our other brother (B). Apparently Bro A and his mate want to buy the 2 flats to rent out. They're planning to reduce the size of the garden, tarmac the larger part and rent out what could probably amount to 8 or 9 small parking spaces! Quite what B would get out of this arrangement is unclear (although sis and I both think he might be the mate). So ... 2 flats rented at around a £ 1000 and £1300 a month, plus the guaranteed parking spaces at maybe £30 a week gives them a nice income and they don't even want to pay me the full price for my flat and garden!

I've e-mailed A and B, saying that I don't appreciate them trying to bully me into selling my flat TO THEM, particularly when they've not been honest about being the buyers, knowing DH is unwell (and essentially leaving all decision making to me at the moment). I've also pointed out that the 50/50 split they wanted was really shafting me and if they continue to push the issue I'll get a solicitor involved. I've told them that I want no further contact with them.

My sister has also emailed them, saying that Dad gave his daughters joint LPA over his health and wealth not them and that Dads insistence that "his girls" look after him now makes perfect sense. She's also said that she wants no further contact with them.

I'm angry but also confused. My brothers have always been a little condescending but it never occurred to me that they might try something like this.

Bloody hell OP.... I'm.fuming for you ! They can fuck right off. You did the right thing. They are trying to shift you and your poor dad illness being the catalyst for it...they don't give a shit about either of you it seems. Selling your dad's flat to pay for his care is the ONLY correct option. What that's. You did the right thing and don't even bat an eyelid over it !!! Good luck

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 20:40

4plusthehound · 22/05/2023 21:33

Because they are wankers and are trying to pull a fast one.

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This

Rosscameasdoody · 23/05/2023 20:40

weirdoboelady · 23/05/2023 00:54

I've thought about this quite a bit, and (admittedly bending over backwards) can sort of see the brothers' POV. Imagine this scenario

You see your family home, and realise that it's a great development opportunity. Sold separately, the flats might together raise x, but if the whole property were sold as a development, it might raise 6x (for example).

But there's a drawback. Your sister has bought the downstairs flat from your parents, so no-one can buy the whole development opportunity without your sister selling up.

So you go to your sister and explain to her that it's a great opportunity and obviously you'll give her 50% of the sale price for the whole property.

Probably because you are blinded by greed, but it could be naiveity, you overlook the fact that your sister actually owns more than 50% of the property (because she ... I forget the deets here but she has the larger flat with the garden). You also completely fail to take into account the fact that your sister's DH is unwell, and just refuse to hear the fact that she doesn't want to move in any case.

(My business brain is telling me that if my ridiculous example was true, and the whole property really was worth 6x what the sum of the two flats was worth, some negotiation ought to go on. And so the OP ought to give a tiny bit of thought to what percentage of the sale price actually WOULD be fair. But a valid answer might still be 'I don't want to move, even for £1m')

If I were the brother and really believed the above, I would be trying to negotiate - and I don't think that would make me an awful person (although unless I was very stupid indeed, the initial offer of 50% says a lot about my shitty character).

Just wanted to look at it from another angle, really.

But it still doesn’t alter the fact that the LA would be the only one to benefit. The more income generated from the sale of the property, the more liability DF has for care home fees. So the OP would end up essentially giving her father part of the proceeds from the sale of her flat, towards his care.

ArdeteiMasazxu · 23/05/2023 20:44

Alinino124 · 23/05/2023 19:54

Me and my husband paid almost a 100 years of contributions to be looked after from “cradle to grave” maybe you are too young to remember the promise made to us by the nhs. You are only jealous because you obvs don’t own your own home.
we worked hard all our lives to leave something to our children. Why should the government not pay they have our money. WHERE THE FRICKING hell is that money. Pray tell me.

Apologies for the total digression from the point if the thread, but:
@Alinino124 since you ask, I shall explain.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 1950-1960 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 1950-60. At that time life expectancy was circa 65 years and less than 8% of the population was over 60 so there was enough to go around.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 1970-1980 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 1970-80. At that time life expectancy was circa 70 years and around 10% of the population was over 60 so things were a little more stretched.

The NI contributions made by people who were working in 2010-2020 paid for the people who were too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 2010-20. At that time life expectancy was circa 81 years and around 20% of the population was over 60 so things were getting seriously unbalanced. Increasing retirement age very slightly didn't really help much.

Those contributions you made over 50 years are spent. They went on your own parents, aunts and uncles. That money is gone.

The people expected to pay for those who are too old, too sick or otherwise unable to work in 2020-30 are those in work now - that is, people in the gig economy who are making a pittance because their employers have found loopholes in the law to underpay them and fiddle the books to avoid NI contributions. So surprise surprise there's not nearly enough money.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's where your money has gone and there's not a thing you can do about it short of total socialist revolution (and I don't think that would solve it either)

Going back to the 1950s and tying pension age to "life expectancy minus 2 years" would help, if you can get a time machine.

Failing that, some kind of system where each generation of elderly pool their resources in some way so that those unfortunate enough to need decades of care get supported in some way by the wealth of those who manage to die without needing expensive care, to even-out the peaks and troughs of the extremes of good fortune and bad fortune. But any time something sensible like that is suggested the tabloids start screeching about a "death tax" and the politicians can't make it happen, so the spiral into total collapse continues.

Rosscameasdoody · 23/05/2023 20:49

placemats · 22/05/2023 18:36

You cannot sell the whole house. You legally own the garden flat and your father owns the upstairs flat. It matters not that you are related.

Your father can go into care on the basis that the flat will be sold to pay for his care home fees. Any extra will have to be met from surviving relatives. I would seek legal advice on how best to enact a repayment of fees for the care home.

I hope you get good advice given your circumstances. You have the worry of a dad and a husband to look after. Please take care of yourself and all the best to you and your sister, who is your friend and ally. xx

Relatives have no obligation to pay care home fees and LA’s cannot force them to.

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 20:54

Rosscameasdoody · 23/05/2023 20:49

Relatives have no obligation to pay care home fees and LA’s cannot force them to.

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+1

diddl · 23/05/2023 21:01

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 20:54

+1

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In this case though relatives aren't being asked to pay are they?

Theyreallydidaskthat · 23/05/2023 21:04

diddl · 23/05/2023 21:01

In this case though relatives aren't being asked to pay are they?

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No they they are not. Only the fathers flat has to be sold to cover care costs. The OP and her siblings don't have to top anything up.