to ask who is in the wrong here?

[bringincrazyback]

Perspectives on a row DH and I just had would be appreciated. I'm beyond frustrated at this point.

Context is housework that needs doing before a few days away. (Further context: DH's mother is a dyed-in-the-wool traditionalist who never taught any of her sons how to do housework, because their wives would do all that kind of thing.)

DH never takes the initiative with anything housework-wise, literally doesn't seem to know how to do certain things, and unless directly asked by me, does none apart from doing the bins, a bit of cooking and washing up. No actual cleaning unless asked a million times. Arguments over housework, and the need to do more of it, are frequent because he doesn't care what state the house is in and thinks I should stop being uptight and do next to no housework. Not happening. (For info, I have ME and various pain issues which mean I have to pace myself carefully where things like housework are concerned.)

Earlier this evening:
Me: Will you have time to give me a hand with the housework over the next couple of evenings?
DH: Yes, of course, just text me a list. (I always get this 'text me a list' business, even when I tell him verbally what needs doing. He seems incapable of seeing for himself what needs doing.)
Me: Well, W, X, Y and Z need doing. I don't like texting a list, it makes me feel like I'm issuing orders.
DH while I've been telling him what needs doing: several repetitions of 'yeah, yeah,' which usually means (and I think this time is no exception) that he isn't listening.

So I get cracking, do as much as I am able, but not the stuff I'd already asked him to do, stupidly thinking he'll come and do it as he appeared to have agrred to do.
DH spends the whole evening in his man cave.

Conversation at bedtime:
Me: You will be able to help with the housework tomorrow, right?
DH: You didn't text me a list.
Me: No, but I told you what needed doing.
DH: That's not my recollection. I said to text me a list.
Me: I didn't need to, I told you what needed doing.

A bit more verbal ping-pong and he's claiming he's 'always' cleaning the kitchen worktop and the area where the cats' bowls are. By 'cleaning' it transpires he means sweeping his hand over the surfaces, catching bits and binning them. Possibly passing a damp cloth over them at most.

Me: You need to use the anti-bacterial spray as well.
DH: (makes a contemptuous noise) No one needs to use anti-bacterial spray unless they're Michael Jackson.
(There's a whole list of things normal sensible people do, which he deems unnecessary and neurotic, apparently this is one of them... a few years back he sneered at me for saying toilets needed cleaning under the rim and said didn't I know how gravity works?)

A bit of further quarrelling and he huffs out of bed and stomps to the spare room with the words, 'I'm an adult, I make my own decisions.'

AIBU for expecting him (as an adult, as he's so at pains to tell me) to use a bit more initiative, to not just weasel out of keeping promises on a technicality, and... to actually listen to me?

Text him a list.

Better still, write a big list of EVERYTHING that needs doing and then put your names against specific jobs.

Let him see the totality of what’s needed to run a house. And how much you do; and how much he does.

Does he think there's another adult texting you the list then you're splitting it out?

I'd text The list then ask him next week to be in charge and text you a list of what needs done so he understands you aren't in charge of all the housework.

Or- you ( like OP’s husband) could make their own list

This. And also maybe rein back on chores if you're unwell. Or alternatively get a cleaner.

I often wonder how a man child like this copes at work and outside the home generally

He's telling you that helping out is beneath him and he's being deliberately obtuse

Text him a list just to get it done. It's ridiculous but he's not going to budge

I don't think men like this ever change unfortunately

Jesus, I don't even know what to say to his claims that he doesn't need to use spray and gravity will sort it out. Pathetic.

If this were my husband I'd be having a serious conversation with him about the future of our marriage and letting him know that I can't see him as an equal partner with how he currently behaves towards the running of the household, and therefore would be willing to consider divorcing if things didn't improve, and quickly. I would suggest he Google's and researches how to clean properly, like he would do at work when he doesn't know how to do something to a good standard. He wouldn't DREAM of being so incompetent at something in a work setting.

YANBU to be irritated but you could’ve just text him a list and that would’ve avoided the whole argument.

I wouldnt waste my time texting a list.
i also wouldnt ask him to ‘help’ with the housework. That makes it sound like it is my job and he is gracing me with a scrap of ‘help’ he would need a medal for.

change the words you use firstly. Dh you need to do your share if the housework tomorrow evening.

if he asks for a list order him on his amazon account a book about housekeeping. There are loads.

You need to make a master list together and decide which jobs are whose, ultimately. I would stear him towards jobs like the laundry, bins etc that will be a problem for him if they aren't done.

But short term, yes, just text him a list to avoid any excuse.

OP you have insight into his background and upbringing- you know he hasn't had it modelled to him.

Of course it would be amazing if he developed these skills and could work out what needed doing and when but how do people learn? With guidance and support.

If you want to point out his incompetence, of course he's going to be defensive and feel wounded. You're going to have a difficult time trying to get him to see things from your perspective when it's not his consciousness, It doesn't mean it's fair or right but this is what you are dealing with.

Better to find neutral time (not when you're about to have guests) to discuss the full issue ie you don't want to be responsible for the thinking and the doing of all things related to the home and can he either put in place steps to understand that, support the situation and make headspace for learning (plus start building in time to attend to particular duties and chores) or pay a cleaner to outsource it.

If this is part of a bigger issue in the relationship then maybe you need to address them- any other major imbalances or areas where you feel taken advantage of?

Yabu about the list and leaving him to his man cave then needling him at bedtime.

Yanbu to want to live in a clean home with husband that does a fair share.

The problem is that you are trying to change him. You knew what he was like when you met so I'm not sure you have any leverage.

As a practical solution, you could draw up a list of needs, tackle half of them and then draw down funds to pay for a cleaner for the other half. It feels a bit odd taking joint money in that way but living in a clean house is a reasonable expectation not a lifestyle choice.

Alternatively, you could pick a calm time and talk to him about it meaningfully and fully set out the problem. Explain that living in an unclean home is an unfair expectation, because he makes half the mess. it makes you feel undervalued to have to clean up after two people. It's not sexy and it's hard to want to spend time with him meaningfully when you are burnt out. What does he think is a fair solution?

Somehow my husband just seems to know what needs to be done, strange I know.

Mine too, and his mom treated him like a Prince growing up so he never had to do anything at home. Amazing.

Their home was (and still is!) always perfect so he maintains those high standards.

This!
Am amazed by some of these comments.
The fact OPs husband needs to be told what needs to be done is pathetic anyway.

You’re not doing what he’s asked you to. He’s not doing what you’re asking him to.
Try doing what he’s asked and he might do the same! Worth a try rather than just being pedantic

Then he can easily make a list of things that need doing in his own house and refer to that list. Household chores do not belong to OP so she should not have to make the list. Keeping track of everything that needs doing is often harder work than actually doing it !!

Lists are fine in general. There's nothing wrong with lists.

Say I am visiting my mum this afternoon and I ask her if there's anything she would like me to pick up from the shop on my way. I would expect her to send me a list.

Say it is my husbands turn to make dinner one night and he plans to call at the shop on the way home to get the food for it. I would not expect to have to provide him a list and I would be annoyed if he asked me to give him one. The job of deciding what is for dinner and figuring out how to make it and what he needs was his. If that part of the job becomes "mine" then I'm for some reason still having to be involved in what was his responsibility.
On the other hand, If he asked me if there was anything I needed for myself while he was in the shop, then I would send him a list 😊

No one needs to use anti-bacterial spray

He has a point that anti-bacterial sprays are overused nowadays.

https://www.homemadesimple.com/in-the-home/daily-cleaning-schedule-checklist-time-saver/

Send him this and tell him to draw up his own list.

He obviously thinks it's beneath him though because anyone with half a brain cell can work it out!

YABU. Just text the list.

You knew what he was like when you married him so you accepted him like that. He’s willing to contribute, he just wants a list, so send it.

If you wanted a self sufficient partner you should have chosen one. Instead you chose to marry a man whose house was so filthy you wouldn’t move in till it was clean. What did you expect further down the line?

This. In spades.

I find it unbelievable that people on here are turning this back to you. I despair for women sometimes.

You chose this man? You married this man? Some women's desperation to be part of a couple is what lands then in shit like this. You need to write him a list OP. He still won't follow it mind. You lucky lady.

Yabu. Write a list . I'd never remember a verbal list and I'm female

Tell him to get his phone out, go to his notes and take down the list you already have him. Tell him again if need be. In future, he can always refer to that list.

For all the people saying he should text her a list because maybe he can’t retain verbal lists, I have two questions…

• why the hell can’t he write the list if he knows he likes to work to a written list? She’s not his memory manager
• what adult needs a list for things like “wipe the counter down” when it’s what you do every day (or multiple times a day).

the “write me a list” tactic is a delaying / I’m-not-listening tactic to get the op to shut up.

Just text the list if thats what he needs.

I do most of the cleaning and housework, I can see and know what needs doing. However I still need to have a list to tick off if it’s a big pre holiday clean or doing the bits that I don’t do daily. Some people’s brains just work like that. If he finds a list helpful, especially if he doesn’t usually do the jobs you’re asking him to do why would you not just send the list?

He could literally have written down what she was saying to him, but that's clearly too much effort for his poor man brain.