Ignore and block childminder?

[Avatari]

Several months ago we started looking for childcare and nursery options were not looking great. We managed to find a woman who would come to the house and babysit from 9-5. 2 months before starting she said she would agree to £11.50 an hour to baby sit 1 yr old. The week before she was due she told us her husband said she couldn't work for less than £13 so we agreed. As we were pretty stuck at that point, I was back at work in 5 days with no alternative.

She hasn't been great. At one point she told us on the Sunday she wouldn't be available that week. Then would get annoyed when we told her there were school holidays so we wouldn't need her. We have been looking for alternative care and managed to get a nursery place starting next week. We told her as soon as we knew, end of April that wed only need her 3 more weeks. So this week should have been her last week. Except we have covid. So told her we wouldn't need her.
We were intending to send her a gift to thank her for her help and send her this week's money.

EXCEPT she has just sent a message to DH saying that we need to pay for June and July as we had a contract. There was no contract. We never specified when we would need her until. She also said she was a single mother and has three children. She has repeatedly told us about her husband.

We are now inclined to not offer to pay this week just ignore and block now. But just wanted thoughts that this is reasonable and reassurance that she hasn't got a leg to stand on.

No it isn't a case of 'needs must in a difficult situation' as a justification for using ' 'cheap casual labour'. The OP was employing someone to look after her baby. 'Cheap casual labour' is amoral in any context - it inhumanises and commodities people - but it's a no-brainer in this context. 'Cheap casual labour' is exploitative. Exploiting people to look after your baby is not very sensible.

I’d put it in the same category as asking a nursery worker or a neighbour’s teenage daughter to do a bit of casual baby sitting once or twice a week and paying them cash?

The nursery workers at my niece’s nursery regularly get asked to do this.
Both parties benefit don’t they?

Obviously no formal agreements are agreed so any disputes over pay are a civil matter.

Legally with or without a written contract you have a weeks notice (until 2 years employment), you gave her 3 and tbh she didn’t deserve that. I would pay her final week personally because I feel guilty about everything. I think from there block her and hope she takes them win.

Sounds like you got a real child minder for your very young child...Not!!!

9-5 two days a week isn't the odd bit of casual babysitting.

I think you can only claim UC/tax free for registered providers, which may have caused confusion.
Nannies themselves don't have to be registered though.

You should pay her yes for this week but not until July when you had no contract. You should have also made clear if you were paying her in the holidays or not (and if you needed her in holidays as doesn’t sound like she knew that). But yeah, cash in hand is not good, you’re lucky nothing bad happened as she doesn’t sound like she’s very good if not even registered etc

You haven't covered yourself in glory. I agree you did exploit her you can change the narrative to say it was a casual arrangement but that wasn't the case when she went away with 2 days notice and you were annoyed. It was a regular nanny service for 2 days. Nanny's cost alot more than what you paid. I'm gobsmacked you basically had an unqualified unlicensed stranger take care of your baby. I think you knew full well she was picking up extra in cash and hand which is why you were wanting to pay her when you were sick.

I wouldn't pay a penny and threaten her with benefits office and hmrc if she won't give up.

Seriously though...what are the chances of the 'nanny' reporting OP to HMRC, when she herself is quite flagrantly dodging HMRC?? I would guess zero chance! 🤷‍♀️

Oh behave! 🤦‍♀️ You really wouldn't in these circumstances! Both of them dodging HMRC, cash in hand, no contract, weekly paid!

I agree that the whole set up is beyond dodgy, but so much bloody virtue signalling on this thread!!

you did NOT have a childminder you hired a nanny! It’s so ignorant that people still do not educate themselves on this considering you are giving them responsibility of your children. I have been both a nanny and childminder and it’s by far the most insulting thing when parents don’t even educate themselves on this.
Because she was a nanny you employed her. I would never have accepted a job with no contract and no notice period, but because she has then she has left herself open to potentially not being paid notice. But also it’s immoral to just not pay her what she is owed and blocking her is just childish. End things in a civil way and move on with a lesson learned.

There’s a lot of nasty judgement on here. OP’s husband was there the whole time and this lady was recommended and dbs checked. Some of you are making out this babysitter is has been treated as a slave where it sounds like a mutual agreement (which OP regrets) . The babysitter is holidaying in Florida and was happy to accept cash!!!!

Yes good idea to pay the one week pay and forget her other demands. Though I don't think it's about taking the "high road" as you've said, but the bare minimum. You can't just randomly revoke salary because she sent an annoying text.

I've not hired a nanny in the UK but have in the US (this arrangement would count as a nanny, even under the table) and they're very big on something called 'guaranteed hours'. Basically you've asked them to set aside certain timeslots for you, so if you cancel at the last minute, you're still obligated to pay them for that reserved time. Of course there's reciprocal flexibility on both sides (eg you've said she gave you 2 days notice for a day's absence), but it sounds like there was little to no notice of a whole week's lost income.

And yes under the table includes cash in hand, taxes not paid, no contract etc

And this is why what happens when you try to defraud the government and care so little for your child you ‘employ’ someone with out DBS check and choose not to pay NI, pensions, holiday and sick pay. If you don’t treat others fairly you can only expect the same back.

She may not have been an easy person to work with, but nontheless it must be pretty horrible and scary to suddenly find yourself out of a job with only 3 weeks notice.

You definitely need to pay her this next week, I would think, and personally I would give her more notice/pay that also if I could possibly afford to without my own family suffering. Whatever the legal technicalities, I think that is the compassionate and just thing to do, IF you are in a position to (you may not be).

Good luck OP.

If people are off work sick, their childcare needs will change.

If people know they're ill with what can still be a nasty, nasty virus, they might still want to minimise opportunities for it to spread, through reducing social contacts.

One of my relatives has just spent a month in and out of hospital due to COVID and complications arising from it. Just because a virus has become endemic, doesn't mean it can't still be very unpleasant.

Rather than just sharing our germs with each other, the responsible thing to do with any contagious illness (eg norovirus, COVID) is to risk assess our own circumstances and look for ways to reduce the risk of spreading germs unnecessarily.

She was not a babysitter, she was your nanny.

Of course you should pay her the full notice period you had given her, being sick doesnt mean you dont pay.

Nursery will often refuse to take a sick child and you may need emergency child care in future.

Morally you should have given her 4weeks notice, you dont have the moral high ground you think you have.

I'm surprised that you don't need her services this week. You and your husband are both so unwell with covid that you are unable to work yourselves. Surely being so terribly unwell would mean you need her help with your DD more than ever this week, while you rest and recuperate from the ravages of covid.

Are you claiming money from your employer (AKA sick pay) for this week? The irony. You won't work and expect payment. She will work, but you will not allow her to and suck up the wage loss.

You're expending an awful lot of energy in trying to cheat this woman out of a week's wages.

OP I have read the whole thread and your replies but couldn’t read and run as I work in payroll for a nanny agency so thought some advice may be useful.

Firstly, I am sorry that you have been burnt and had a poor experience. The lack of accessible knowledge along with affordable childcare led you here but ultimately there are a few legal matters you should consider.

Even without a contract, you have been employing a nanny. The regular hours, the fact you made payment (cash or otherwise) the communication that will have been agreed over text all suggest an employment contract and this is how a court of law would interpret it.

As an employer, regardless of the nanny’s apparent comfort with your casual arrangement, it is your legal duty to ensure that your employee’s tax, national insurance and pension contributions are completely satisfied. You can back date this as she only has been in your employment for 2.5 months but would urge you to do this asap.

HMRC have an employers line that I would urge you to contact.

Secondly, as a paid employee you are legally required to pay her holiday pay. Roughly worked out at 12.5% on top of their hourly rate. Again you can back pay this as a lump sum following the termination of her employment.

The week you did not require her due to Covid you are legally required to pay her. But I think that has been covered.

The times that your nanny was unavailable to work for you you should have followed some kind of return to work process. If she was sick then a calculation for Statutory Sick Pay should have been completed (easily accessible on gov.Uk). If she just didn’t show up because of unagreed holiday you should have taken her through a disciplinary scenario.

The notice period was not formally recorded and so I think I’m the eyes of the law you should be fine. However, to dismiss anyone you have to provide a reasonable reason. Going to nursery would be one of these, you should be fine.

Your obligations above stand regardless of what you believe the nanny is personally comfortable with. By not completing these you are, unfortunately, exploiting cheap labour however you may feel and I’m sorry that this may be a shock.

Alongside this you should have had employers liability insurance incase of an accident at the place of work (your home).

Regarding the unprofessionalism you experienced, as an employer you should have had a clear disciplinary process in place, allowing for improvement.

ACAS offer a free employer helpline which I strongly suggest you contact to help with all the above.

Lastly, it is not down to the nanny to dictate her employment status. You have employed someone whether she or you knew it. However, she will have until at least January 2024 to declare earnings from you, for any payment made up to and including April 5th 2023 and the following January for anything after that. So at this point, you are the only one breaking the law not her.

Should she declare this later on, you potentially will face a heavy fine and prison sentence.

Again, I’m sorry this has been so crap for you all. I hope that the above is useful and that your little one enjoys nursery.

for everyone else
childminder is someone who works in their own home, has to have a DBS and be Ofsted registered.

nanny/babysitter none of the above legally applies though it is good recourse to have them.

A note about a DBS checks.
Anyone can have a DBS check. Including a murderer. However what you should be looking for (and checking) is a clean DBS on the update service. If an individual has a DBS completed in 2020 who is to say they haven’t committed a crime since then. A piece of paper is never enough and you should either check their DBS status on the update service or request a new up to date check.

Secondly there are multiple types of DBS certificate. A basic certificate me which is available to anyone but will not give you a full history and for working with children the top level is recommended. An enhanced DBS check with adults and children’s barred lists. This will ensure you see any pending convictions or indictments along with any additional information which the local authority, police service or social services feel relevant.

As an example I have seen a clean basic DBS check but when we ran an enhanced with barred lists it transpired that the individual had had 5 children removed from her care due to neglect. No prosecution so no disclosure on a basic but of course, no one wanted to employ this nanny as a result.

You can only request an enhanced certificate if you are an employer so it is unlikely this nanny has an up to date version.

Hello @Avatari. As your husband WFH I'm assuming your childminder didn't have any keys to your home, as otherwise I'd recommend changing the barrels of your locks. 🌹

You may have employed her wrongly or not. If you've gone through HMRC employment status indicator tool and that is showing she should have been self employed then save a copy of that judgement if she does try anything HMRC usually stand by that if you have answered the questions truthfully.

As there are no contracts in place from either party, just go with the statutory notice pay 1 week for each year of service. Pay however you want.

If she wants to be difficult, you could always report her to HMRC yourself if you are concerned that she is defrauding the tax office by not paying tax on her earnings.

You have both behaved poorly in having no written contract, and neither of you seem to understand how professional childminding services work.

Having said that, you have behaved shabbily in offering such a short notice period ( three weeks is less than the basic minimum standard of a month) and seeking to reduce it further is just terrible. You should pay her the notice period of at least a month even if you tell her not to work during that time. That would be the decent thing to do.