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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Ignore and block childminder?

269 replies

Avatari · 16/05/2023 22:18

Several months ago we started looking for childcare and nursery options were not looking great. We managed to find a woman who would come to the house and babysit from 9-5. 2 months before starting she said she would agree to £11.50 an hour to baby sit 1 yr old. The week before she was due she told us her husband said she couldn't work for less than £13 so we agreed. As we were pretty stuck at that point, I was back at work in 5 days with no alternative.

She hasn't been great. At one point she told us on the Sunday she wouldn't be available that week. Then would get annoyed when we told her there were school holidays so we wouldn't need her. We have been looking for alternative care and managed to get a nursery place starting next week. We told her as soon as we knew, end of April that wed only need her 3 more weeks. So this week should have been her last week. Except we have covid. So told her we wouldn't need her.
We were intending to send her a gift to thank her for her help and send her this week's money.

EXCEPT she has just sent a message to DH saying that we need to pay for June and July as we had a contract. There was no contract. We never specified when we would need her until. She also said she was a single mother and has three children. She has repeatedly told us about her husband.

We are now inclined to not offer to pay this week just ignore and block now. But just wanted thoughts that this is reasonable and reassurance that she hasn't got a leg to stand on.

OP posts:
Cattenberg · 17/05/2023 09:02

The rules surrounding this are so complicated. I thought that if a nanny or cleaner worked for more than one family, she was classed as self-employed and responsible for paying her own income tax and NI. Is that incorrect?

SnackSizeRaisin · 17/05/2023 09:04

Avatari · 17/05/2023 09:00

We pay the nursery 50 weeks a year regardless of whether baby is in or not. I thought that was standard?

Show quote history

With ours you can have a term time only contract where you pay for at least one day during every week of the year but you only pay the rest of the days during term time.

You would need to ask though - they don't advertise it

SherbetDips · 17/05/2023 09:04

Ok first it all she’s not a babysitter she’s a nanny if she’s providing care in your home whilst children are awake and needing care she is a nanny.

you have to employ a nanny and pay her tax and Ni,

and nannys don’t have to be ofsted registered by law. Only childminders.

Fighterofthenightman1 · 17/05/2023 09:07

cyncope · 16/05/2023 22:37

She's not a babysitter or a childminder.

You were employing her 9-5 to work in your home.
Sounds like you were doing so without fulfilling your legal responsibilities by registering as an employer and deducting tax and NI.

I think you should pay her a month's notice and next time do some research before you employ someone. Cash in hand is illegal.

Cash in hand isn't illegal lol

samestyle · 17/05/2023 09:08

No contract, no pay, after changing her hourly rate and times with you last minute, she's seeing what else she can get away with, tell her to do one.

SnackSizeRaisin · 17/05/2023 09:08

Cattenberg · 17/05/2023 09:02

The rules surrounding this are so complicated. I thought that if a nanny or cleaner worked for more than one family, she was classed as self-employed and responsible for paying her own income tax and NI. Is that incorrect?

There are several things - whether the worker provides their own equipment, whether they can send someone else in their place if they want, whether they have choice over their working hours, there are more that I can't remember. Generally if you work regular hours and don't provide your own equipment and it has to be you that turns up (all of which apply to nannies) you would be considered employed.

It's not straightforward to decide - there's no single rule.

Whenharrymetsmelly · 17/05/2023 09:09

CreeperBoom · 16/05/2023 22:28

I actually think you are on dodgy ground. It sounds like she is not a childminder, but a nanny. You should be employing her, paying NI, tax and holiday pay, etc, etc.

You (and she) should have been clear upfront about holidays and notice period. I actually think you have treated her pretty badly, though she hasn't been professional either.

Probably for the best you have found something else, and I think you should pay until one full month after you gave her notice as a minimum.

I hope you are prepared for nursery charging when you are not there, they are closed for xmas, etc.

I agree with this, you pay for what you get unfortunately and it's probably karma for trying to avoid paying tax etc

WomanStanleyWoman2 · 17/05/2023 09:11

sleepingdragon · 16/05/2023 22:24

How often did you pay her? You did have a contract even if it wasn't a written one, and so need to pay her notice period. It sounds like you were her employer, so whatever reasons you have for not wanting her to work for you anymore I would be careful not to end up in an employment tribunal especially if you have not properly set up the contract.

😆😆😆

”An employment tribunal”! Over a bit of casual babysitting over the course of a few weeks!

MN never fails to deliver.

SnackSizeRaisin · 17/05/2023 09:12

Fighterofthenightman1 · 17/05/2023 09:07

Cash in hand isn't illegal lol

Show quote history

The term Cash in hand means cash is paid without records kept and won't be declared to HMRC, have vat paid etc. This is illegal.

It's obviously not illegal to pay someone in cash as long as there's an invoice or payslip, or it's for very occasional low value work such as genuine babysitting

ejbaxa · 17/05/2023 09:15

SnackSizeRaisin · 16/05/2023 22:34

Also what difference does covid make? Are people really still using that as an excuse? Surely most employers would just tell you to go to work regardless

Please stop thinking this. It is just not true for a fair number of people. Covid took me down for several weeks and put my db in intensive care (triple jabbed). I have no health conditions or risks and am 45 and had all jabs.

Fighterofthenightman1 · 17/05/2023 09:21

SnackSizeRaisin · 17/05/2023 09:12

The term Cash in hand means cash is paid without records kept and won't be declared to HMRC, have vat paid etc. This is illegal.

It's obviously not illegal to pay someone in cash as long as there's an invoice or payslip, or it's for very occasional low value work such as genuine babysitting

Show quote history

The term 'cash in hand' doesn't just mean that at all

It means being paid in cash

whowhatwerewhy · 17/05/2023 09:22

Personally I would pay her for this week then block.
Should she kick up a fuss I would mention sending your payment records to HMRC , I doubt if she's been been declaring any income.

Muu · 17/05/2023 09:25

It sounds like there was wrong on both sides and now it’s a mess. You need to properly employ a nanny (as you now know!)

I sympathise. I have a nanny because I can’t use a childminder or nursery. She is great but it took me a while to find her. Much easier to use a nursery if you can.

maddening · 17/05/2023 09:32

Allbymyself44 · 17/05/2023 05:24

You only gave her 3 weeks notice? That's appalling. It's someone's livelihood and life regardless of how flaky someone is. Bills still have to be paid and food needs to be put on the table.

She has only worked there for a few months 2 days a week and paid weekly - 3 weeks is ample imo

Myalternate · 17/05/2023 09:34

Fairly simple solution to this.

Ask for her Tax Code, NI number. Use a salary calculator (google them) enter her details and her weekly payment. It will calculate what tax/NI is due, if any. Payment to HMRC can be made quarterly if you’re a ‘small employer’
Under 2 years employment you don’t have to have a reason to dispense with her services. If she’s paid weekly, you are only required to give her one weeks notice unless an agreement exists that longer notice is required.

I’m sure she’ll provide the necessary.

Kennykenkencat · 17/05/2023 09:37

Ladybug14 · 17/05/2023 05:33

You can say what you like, OP, but if she reports you to HMRC, then you will be fined.

I'd pay her for her final month and learn from this.

She might report and op and her husband might get fined but that is nothing to the fine she will receive for not declaring her cash in hand earnings

gamerchick · 17/05/2023 09:44

FFS. Some by the book people don't live in the real world. This shit goes on all over.

I have also said we are happy to report it to HMRC admit our fault/naivety and pay any NI due

Start with that when you tell her you're paying for the week you didn't need her. You'll not see her for dust.

Learn your lessons and do it properly next time, rather than a random.

Mumsanetta · 17/05/2023 09:45

Ladybug14 · 17/05/2023 05:33

You can say what you like, OP, but if she reports you to HMRC, then you will be fined.

I'd pay her for her final month and learn from this.

“You will be fined”. Who died and made you the official voice of HMRC?

@Avatari ignore the scaremongering. You’ve learned the lesson and you’re fine not to pay for June and July. I wouldn’t give it another thought as this woman is highly unlikely to be declaring her income to HMRC let alone trying to report you!

Kennykenkencat · 17/05/2023 09:49

HaveSomeIntrospect · 16/05/2023 23:07

using Your description, she meets the legal definition of a nanny.
You were employing her illegally by not paying her minimum wage plus tax and ni.
She was not a childminder

If she was being paid minimum wage then tax and national insurance are deducted from the salary. So she would have ended up with less

Kennykenkencat · 17/05/2023 09:50

She was also on well above minimum wage

gogohmm · 17/05/2023 09:50

Unfortunately for you it was not a legal situation all around, she was not a babysitter but a nanny and you should have been paying tax, ni and pension. She was not declaring meaning she was breaking the law too. The good news is there's nothing she can do but do pay her a month from when you cancelled

JimJamJo · 17/05/2023 09:54

If there is tax (and NI) due - it will be the OP who needs to pay it.

Hammerhouseofhorrors · 17/05/2023 09:59

Cash in hand!
Why are you paying cash in hand OP!

So she almost certainly won’t be declaring the money to the tax payer
Id pay her for this week as a maximum.
You gave her notice.

SingleMumStruggling · 17/05/2023 10:25

SnackSizeRaisin · 16/05/2023 22:30

Sounds like you've been illegally employing her. She has been working as a nanny and they are not usually able to be self employed. Is she Ofsted registered? You aren't allowed to pay someone to look after your child on a regular basis unless they are registered.

I would pay her the last week and hope she goes quietly.

Yes you are allowed to pay someone to look after your child - people give money to family members all the time to look after their kids on a regular basis. Also many nannies are self employed.

Where are you getting this information?

SmileyClare · 17/05/2023 10:26

gamerchick · 17/05/2023 09:44

FFS. Some by the book people don't live in the real world. This shit goes on all over.

I have also said we are happy to report it to HMRC admit our fault/naivety and pay any NI due

Start with that when you tell her you're paying for the week you didn't need her. You'll not see her for dust.

Learn your lessons and do it properly next time, rather than a random.

In essence this woman has baby sat for 2 days a week for a few weeks.

Op was well aware it was a casual arrangement and she was paying below the market rate with no written contract.

Are posters forcing their teenagers to obtain a UTR code and declare earnings if they baby sit for a neighbour every week?

This woman wasn’t a professional, she didn’t even know what to charge so likely she regards baby sitting more as a favour for friends/family. She probably saw op’s local advert and thought why not do some baby sitting for pocket money?

This is the result- it’s all a bit messy!

I think I would have been more careful about recommendations and obtaining some references but I understand you were desperate for immediate childcare.

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