to think if EU citizens can vote in local elections if they live here and if Commonwealth Citizens can vote in General Elections,

[cakeorwine]

then what's the issue with EU citizens who live here, pay taxes here etc voting in General Elections?

I don't here people complaining about EU citizens voting in local elections.

But the proposal for EU citizens to vote in general elections seems to have upset the Tories. For some reason.

Who can vote in UK elections? - House of Commons Library (parliament.uk)

Keir Starmer to hand vote to millions of EU nationals if Labour wins next election | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

Under the plans, migrants who live permanently and pay taxes in the UK would be able to vote in general elections for the first time.
The move is expected to enfranchise around 3.4 million EU nationals who have "settled status" in Britain
Meanwhile, 1.4 million 16 and 17-year-olds would also be able to go to the ballot box in line with Scotland and Wales.

Morning @Jonei

My you are persistent for someone who announced they were flouncing yesterday. You really just can't help yourself when you spot an opportunity to deflect can you?

But you're right there are differences between the home nations in how they treat their young people. I keep forgetting that when dealing with the tory deflection squad there's no room for interpretation. Should I have itemised the different legislation / rules that apply in each of the home nations when making a wider point about why I think extending voting rights to 16/17 years in the UK (that is Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, and Wales for clarity)? I mean I also didn't mention that Scottish and Welsh 16 year olds can vote in devolved elections or that they can leave School and work full-time, or any other number of differences, so I guess you would have just pulled me up on one of those instead.

I know it's tough but maybe in future you could try and stay on track instead of being a deflection seeking missile?

So let's bring us back on track - For the 10th time why do you think it is ok for the tories to introduce measures designed to manipulate elections in their favour but do not think it is ok for labour to explore the options for expanding voters rights?

Sorry @SunnyEgg I didn't mean to imply I cba with you, just thought I'd lump my previous replies together but don't want you to feel left out now.

I notice on that other thread your now demanding an evasive poster answers your question. Since you won't answer mine please tell me you at least see the hypocrisy between your behaviour on that thread and this one??

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

As I posted below I heard a commentator sum up my views very well, do you listen to political analysis? Sometimes they can articulate a point better for me

I agreed with the commentator that the voter ID had been over estimated both as an issue initially and a disruption subsequently.

And yes I do think the size of the change counts and that Labour shoring up future success with this expansion is blatantly looking after their own party first, you don’t presumably as you see it as advantageous. So we differ and that’s ok.

@DivorcingEU I had no idea that the govt. was scraping the 15-year limit rule for overseas nationals, I’m close to that limit now.

Tbf though, I’m torn on whether I “should” vote in the UK, given I haven’t lived there for over 10 years. Most decisions won’t really affect me.

Starmer's suggestion of extending voting rights to EU citizens who live here probably has Corbyn's approval - as Israeli citizens wouldn't get the same rights.

Would any UK political figure back giving voting rights to Israeli citizens? Not sure what your point is here, apart from causing mischief.

This. I think this is another example of Labour thinking they own the votes of a group of people as they have with other immigrant groups and with working class/red wall voters. Labour seem to have a real problem seeing people as individual people rather than identities. This expansion may go their way or it may not but I doubt Labour are doing it for altruistic reasons. Probably trying to make up for all the women's votes they know they're losing.

It is mischievous, but the serious point is to consider people who have lived here for 10 years, paying taxes, maybe have kids born here etc etc. If they have a Belgian, Italian or Czech passport then Starmer suggests they should be allowed to vote here, but if they hold an Indonesian, Ethiopian or Israeli passport then they shouldn't. Can't you smell the racism?

I see what you mean. As I understand it, Labour are 'looking at' offering voting rights to EU citizens who moved here under freedom of movement rules when the UK was in the EU, and are settled here. That has a certain historical sense. As for the others, (settled residents of all the other countries in the world) that is another matter. I don't know what Labour's plans (if any) are for these. Personally, I think if an Indonesian, Ethiopian or Israeli citizen has lived here for 30 years, and has made their home here, they should also get the right to vote in general elections. I note that Starmer said to the Times this week that extending voting rights 'isn't policy' and also is not one of his 'five missions'. Also that being an EU citizen is not a guarantee of being white or Gentile.

I don't think we can go around with "can you smell the racism" when in current situation it's non Europeans who can vote. We would just be added to them.

Also, yes, labour should think twice about who would europeans vote for. I am notlr labour nor tory. Bith sides are idiots. But we are quite as @bellac11 described

Impressed with the Mail's headline

Labour's plot to 'rig' elections would give 10MILLION teenagers and migrants the vote | Daily Mail Online

Even people from Russia and North Korea!

I know people from Russia who have settled here, have made the UK their home and contribute to society.

Why shouldn't they have a vote?

I know people from Russia who have settled here, have made the UK their home and contribute to society.

Why shouldn't they have a vote?

Does Russia offer the same?

What Russia does is irrelevant.

If someone is settled here, has shown a commitment to this country, then why shouldn't they have a say in how it's run?

Well, i assume should this proposal (and thats all it is atm) on EU citizens is because they came here under FOM rules, whilst the UK was in the EU and other countries nationals did not.

It would only be racist if the idea was to limit it to white EU nationals but i do believe other skin colours are available.

Deals are struck between countries that excludes other countries nationals, it doesn't make these agreements "racist" i.e the proposed FTA with India and the increases in visa's for their nationals, which i feel sure most uk voters are all in favour of.

Well no it’s not irrelevant, I assume the deflection means it’s a no though.

Why is it relevant?

It's voting in this country.

Not in Russia

Can you explain why you think it's relevant?

I could understand if you wanted a reciprocal arrangement in specific countries and pushed for that, although it not sure if it would get far.

Wanting an advantage for the party of choice isn’t a strong enough reason.

It’s why it’s going down badly

I became a UK citizen in 2017. Moved overseas 2 years later. I can now vote in UK general elections even though I no longer live in the UK, nor have family there. Meanwhile, the EU citizens who are in the UK, some who have lived there for decades, cannot. I don't think that's really fair. I also don't think I am more commited to the UK, just because I paid the £1500 application fee to become a citizen.

Yes becoming a citizen doesn't mean commitment or loyalty.

I mean Bojo is hardly an example of a loyal British subject.... who is that and then lies to the Queen? he wasn't even born here and his father lives in mainland europe, even Farage holds an EU passport.

Well clearly you're not commited to the UK if you got citizenship and then left. That doesn't sound right either.

So what's the answer.

We have people people who don't want to commit to the country through citizenship. We have people who buy the citizenship then leave.

Maybe people need to give up their original citizenship completely of they want the rights that go with citizenship in a new country. Or maybe the flaw in the system should be removed to prevent people to continue to have citizenship rights when they bought the citizenship and then leave the country not long after.

Can you think about why other countries don't offer these rights that you think the UK should offer?

But the UK offers GE voting rights to Commonwealth citizens, so whilst you might not want to withdraw rights from existing CW people, by your own logic, there is zero reason to keep giving these rights to people who move here in the future.

What other countries do or don't is no reason for the UK not to do something, are we sheep? or are we Global Britain.... didn't a leading Tory say Brexit enabled the UK to stand up to Putin and save Ukraine? we led and others then followed.. according to him!

What other countries do or don't is no reason for the UK not to do something, are we sheep

Are we sheep? In some ways, yes.

However, each country should make their own decisions. Even if every other country does offer the vote up to other groups in order to swing the election, it still wouldn't be a good reason to do it. Although undoubtedly other countries don't do it for all the reasons why it's a bad idea.

The commonwealth vote is already here. Tbh, really, I don't think anyone who lives out of the country for a prolonged period of time should have the vote either, apart from things that may directly impact on them, pensions etc.

The commonwealth vote is already here. Tbh, really, I don't think anyone who lives out of the country for a prolonged period of time should have the vote either, apart from things that may directly impact on them, pensions etc.

How would that work? Constant referendums and then sorting out people by age, profession, country they now live in?

Just because the commonwealth vote was seen as logically 60 years ago, it doesn't mean it is still valid today. Out of interest, can UK citizen vote in Australia, South Africa, India etc?

Well clearly you're not commited to the UK if you got citizenship and then left. That doesn't sound right either.

When we filled out the naturalisation paperwork, one question actually is "In which country will you have your permanent home" (or similar). I joked with DH and wondered what would happen if I wrote Germany. We didn't but even having this question on the official paperwork made it a bit of a joke.

The issue is, you don't know what your future brings. To have citizenship the poster must have been here for years and most likely saw herself as settled and wanted to stay. But circumstances change. Maybe she got a job somewhere or fell in love. My current HR boss. has to relocate back to Brazil for an unknown amount of time due to family issues with her parents.

As some pp have said, EU citizens may well be more Tory than Labour, not sure it swings an election, though that night explain why you want new CW citizens to have a vote, even if they ve just got here.

Who gets a vote should be done on fairness, not who they may vote for and as far as i can see, a EU citizen who came here under FOM should have a vote, as they do in local elections.

I think they ve shown their commitment by staying here despite Brexit but spurn citizenship due to the large costs and then not having FOM within the EU.