to think if EU citizens can vote in local elections if they live here and if Commonwealth Citizens can vote in General Elections,

[cakeorwine]

then what's the issue with EU citizens who live here, pay taxes here etc voting in General Elections?

I don't here people complaining about EU citizens voting in local elections.

But the proposal for EU citizens to vote in general elections seems to have upset the Tories. For some reason.

Who can vote in UK elections? - House of Commons Library (parliament.uk)

Keir Starmer to hand vote to millions of EU nationals if Labour wins next election | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

Under the plans, migrants who live permanently and pay taxes in the UK would be able to vote in general elections for the first time.
The move is expected to enfranchise around 3.4 million EU nationals who have "settled status" in Britain
Meanwhile, 1.4 million 16 and 17-year-olds would also be able to go to the ballot box in line with Scotland and Wales.

The size of the change is irrelevant though, it is action and intent that matters.

On the one hand you have Labour's position on extending voter rights, which haven't even been announced officially. But even if it becomes part of an official manifesto, the intent is to extend voting rights to everyone who calls the UK home and to increase the representation of the people in elections. To argue that we shouldn't look at changing voter rights because it might make election results more reflective of UK society is just bizarre.

On the other hand you have the Tories position, who have actually implemented voter ID legislation and have now admitted that they did so in an attempt to gerrymander results in their favour (which has hilariously backfired). Claiming this is ok because it's a "small change" is ridiculous. It's like saying "I'm not bothered about my car being stolen last week because I heard someone considering whether it would be worth robbing my house in 18 months time".

The fact that so few people are outraged that a sitting government have openly admitted to attempting to manipulate election results shows just how low this country has sunk.

I've asked @Jonei this 8 [eight] times now to no avail but maybe you can/will answer since you seem to have the same view:

Why you think actually implementing measures that were designed to manipulate election results in favour of one party is worse than exploring the options to make voting more accessible/representative?

Re PR, may I point out that the Liberal Democrat’s have consistently pressed for this.

Oops - I don’t know how that apostrophe crept in!

I disagree.

I agreed with the commentator that the voter ID had been over estimated both as an issue initially and a disruption subsequently. His view was it was over dove all round and disagreed with JRM

On this he said it had a major impact on the franchise.

This helps voters on the left, which I assume is where most posters are coming from on this thread as they see that advantage over all else.

Starmer talking about this on LBC is interesting, not least because he has been very reticent to rock Brexit voters but has done now. Annoyingly for little benefit other than for Labour

Whether it sticks for the manifesto and annoyance, idk nor whether he now doesn’t care about losing those voters. Maybe he’s had people look at numbers and decided he doesn’t need them. I’d say that’s unlikely but who knows

Re PR, may I point out that the Liberal Democrat’s have consistently pressed for this

I'll certainly consider what they have to say closer the time. PR would at least make a positive change for the future, and at the moment it feels like we're all just stuck.

I came across this link in the feminist forum re labour / re votes. 👇 After KS speech, which I must say, after forcing myself to listen to it, was quite powerful. But this, is appalling, and makes me think they're not to be trusted after all. Which is what I thought in the first place. I can't see that KS has made any comment on it.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/23518361.nelson-town-council-hit-election-official-error/

Thebestwaytoscareatory
The size of the change is irrelevant though

Hardly irrelevant when Labour's 2019 manifesto stated this;
We will oversee the largest extension of the franchise in generations...

SunnyEgg
Starmer talking about this on LBC is interesting

Perhaps trying to steal the LibDem vote?

In the political analysis they called it a good piece of journalism. By that I took LBC got a clear mostly unexpected line of response from Starmer in relation to the 2019 manifesto

My take is he’s been hugely cautious regarding Brexit voters up until now but local elections have made him less so.

Also possibly speaking without all the checks they do with strategists etc.

Whether it becomes a bigger thing for the GE I’m not sure, maybe he doesn’t care about the backlash or maybe he will reverse again.

He’s lucky the Tories have their own issues imo as there are plenty thinking he’s untrustworthy on this. Seemingly for Brexit but not etc

SunnyEgg
He’s lucky the Tories have their own issues imo as there are plenty thinking he’s untrustworthy on this.

He's very untrustworthy all round in my opinion.

Have caught up on the thread now and had completely forgotten that us overseas British citizens are allowed to vote in U.K. general elections now.

I'm also against this. It's a total nonsense in always. I own no property in the U.K. so voting in my former constituency is ridiculous. Firstly for the inhabitants and secondly for me because barely anybody from there leaves the area, never mind the UK.

The French, I believe, have an overseas constituency and all non-resident voters not eligible to vote in their constituency are assigned to that. This makes a lot of sense because it also means they - theoretically- can have their voices actually heard. There are issues relating to tax and healthcare impacting people living abroad and/or who return to live in the UK that impact us in a different way to those resident in the UK. Doesn't mean we would all agree or get what we want but at least there's a way we can be represented, while not being counted as residents.

Then surely that would drive the Tories to introduce more "younger voter" friendly policies? instead of the older voter ones they currently push.. or try too.

But you ve hit on something here, the country is divided, on brexit, on age, maybe we would do better if all parties started governing for all of us?

Look at the proposed changes to student loan repayments? favours the wealthy student, not the nurse or teacher.

No i don't Labour, i just think that if your going to insist on sticking to the 18 yo min age based on "maturity/responsibility" better come out with some evidence that 18 plus yo's are more mature?

I just cycled up to my local shop (5 miles away) and can assure you most car drivers (i.e adults) are not responsible, in fact most should be made to re sit their test, not because they put me in danger, no, they over take on bends, crest of hills and are seemingly intent on having a head on collision and killing themselves and others.

@DivorcingEU

Have caught up on the thread now and had completely forgotten that us overseas British citizens are allowed to vote in U.K. general elections now.

I'm not sure that is actually the case ATM but would have to check...it's been a slow process and I'm not sure how far it has got.

The French, I believe, have an overseas constituency and all non-resident voters not eligible to vote in their constituency are assigned to that.

Correct, they also (I think) have a junior minister directly responsible for non-residents and who acts as an official POC for such voters.

I really don't understand your post, internet access, now a days is a necessity, even the DWP will assist claimants and i'm not a migrant and neither are my children.

So you came as a student and stayed? Suella must love you.

I also came young (right after alevels) and stayed. Loads of us did. It's not special.

What is special is to suggest that children of immigrants, who usually really didn't have a say in move should just get to work and pay for their own papers.
I am bit confused by the "came for 2 weeks and paid for myself at 16". Are you suggetsing that by 16 you had your own money to that level to fund 2 weeks completely by yourself? I mean like yeah, in my native country we can work from 15, but no way could we save that money while still at school. Impressive.

I suppose they could do a few but typically the left get the younger voter and vice versa

Look at the proposed changes to student loan repayments

I missed this, what is happening?

I'm not asking about the impact, large or small, I'm asking you why you think actually implementing a measure designed to manipulate election results in favour of one party is worse than exploring ideas to make voting more accessible/representative of society?

Why is this such a hard question for everyone to answer? Even if you think extending voters rights is a similar ploy, surely we can all agree that actually brining in measures to manipulate election results is worse than just considering ways to do it?

This helps voters on the left

And why is that an issue? Those who hold this view appear to be saying we can't look at increasing voter representation in elections because, if the ability to vote was extended to 16/17 years olds and to eligible citizens of all nations who reside in the UK, labour (or a left leaning party) would be more likely to win an election.

Or to put it another way, there are several million people living in, and contributing to, the UK who are not currently allowed to vote / have their say on how the country is run, but we don't want to change that because their views might not favour right-wing parties.

Essentially, the social make-up of the UK at present is more left
leaning than is currently being reflected in elections and surely, if we believe in concept of democracy, we should be doing everything we can to ensure our democratic processes work to reflect the actual feelings of the majority of those living in the country??

I’ve answered with what I think. I agreed with the political commentators take, not yours. 🤷‍♂️

It seems you keep posting at people if it’s not the exact words you want.

I’ll join @Jonei and offer up someone else to continue the discussion and maybe you’ll hear what you want. Good luck.

What's your point???? The size of the change is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Honest to fuck Clav, we go through this. Every. Single. Time. We engage. If you would just quote full posts instead of cherry picking tiny portions of text to fit your narrative you might actually contribute something worthwhile to these threads.

No you didn't! You stated that you agreed with a commentator who said the issues around voter ID have been over estimated and that is was "over done all round" (whatever that means) and that voter expansion might benefit the left.

But I wasn't asking whether you though voter ID was a big issue or whether voter expansion would have a bigger impact on elections. I asked why you think considering doing something is worse than actually doing it.

Look, we all know there is no defending it, which is why there's constant deflection from your camp. Just take the L and admit it's appalling that the Tories have brought in legislation that sought to manipulate elections in their favour if you don't want to answer my Q.

You also haven't actually given any insight as to why you think voter expansion would be a bad thing other than "it would benefit the left".

Here I can give you some an example or two as to why I think it would be a good thing.

1. I believe voting rights should be extended to all eligible people who reside in the UK because; I believe that if you legally reside and contribute to a country, especially a democratic country such as the UK, you should have a voice in how that country is run.

2. I believe voting rights should be extending to 16/17 year olds because; I believe it is important to engage people in politics from a young age as this will help ensure continued engagement in future and that the overall quality of our political system would improve if people had a lifelong interest and engagement with politics. I also believe that as 16/17 year olds are treated as adults in many other situations, are legally allowed to be parents, get married, work, pay taxes, etc., and can have their entire adult lives impacted by election results, they should be allowed their say on how the country is run.

Now you counter....

I’m just skipping through this as it’s the same thing repeatedly, I don’t think I have to do anything.

Except wish you a lovely evening, as I will enjoy mine

I’m sure someone will love debating with you, hang in there

16 / 17 year olds aren't allowed to get married anymore. It's 18. When they're adults. Just like the voting age.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/legal-age-of-marriage-in-england-and-wales-rises-to-18#:~:text=Legal%20age%20of%20marriage%20in,rises%20to%2018%20%2D%20GOV.UK

But they can join the army don't they?

With parental consent.

They can't be deployed to the front line until age 18.

It is 16 in Scotland and Northern Ireland thanks. I know we like to pretend otherwise but those countries (and Wales) are also part of the UK.

Also I thought you were ignoring me? Will you answer my question now or avoid it for a 9th or 10th time (forgetting the number of deflections now).

Also @SunnyEgg I cba to quote your latest response so will just tag you here instead.

It's the same thing repeatedly because you won't answer the question. I've also just spotted a post from you on the nat con thread asking a poster to explain their views specifically. Bit of a bloody cheek to be asking that considering your own aversion to answering questions is it not????

Partial reinforcement seems to be a problem for you. I thought it probably would be.

I am still not planning to enter a meaningless debate with you. I'm just correcting your misinformation. If you had meant only Scotland and NI then you would have said that. But you didn't. You said the UK.

Enjoy your evening ☺️

Also @SunnyEgg I cba to quote your latest response

Ok we’re all on the same page. Happy days 😀