to think if EU citizens can vote in local elections if they live here and if Commonwealth Citizens can vote in General Elections,

[cakeorwine]

then what's the issue with EU citizens who live here, pay taxes here etc voting in General Elections?

I don't here people complaining about EU citizens voting in local elections.

But the proposal for EU citizens to vote in general elections seems to have upset the Tories. For some reason.

Who can vote in UK elections? - House of Commons Library (parliament.uk)

Keir Starmer to hand vote to millions of EU nationals if Labour wins next election | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

Under the plans, migrants who live permanently and pay taxes in the UK would be able to vote in general elections for the first time.
The move is expected to enfranchise around 3.4 million EU nationals who have "settled status" in Britain
Meanwhile, 1.4 million 16 and 17-year-olds would also be able to go to the ballot box in line with Scotland and Wales.

I think it's a great idea and can't believe that they can't vote already.

I also don't think though by any means that they will all be voting against the Conservatives. Though if they do and it means we don't have a Tory government for the next 50 years that would be great.

It literally is the legal age that someone becomes an adult. That's it. I personally think that many 18 year olds are too immature as well, but they are legal adults. If you're going to go to 16 / 17, then why not 14/15?

Just because I don't like labours approach, doesn't mean I like the Tory approach btw. I am historically a floating voter. I wish labour would rise as a party that is dependable, trustworthy and wants to do right by its citizens. There's time I suppose for them to change. But the truth is, neither labour not the tories can be trusted. And once they get into power, then they often stray from their manifesto pledges anyway. KS seemingly has ruled out PR. But I think I would consider voting for a party that would agree that they would definitely do this.

Similar to me. I'm currently saving to get dual citizenship. I've lived here for 33 years. Longer than I lived in my country of origin.
I can at least now get dual citizenship I couldn't when I first lived here. My birth country didn't permit it.

My big concern and reasoning why I've decided to forge ahead now is I worry they will retract their EU citizen promises about is being allowed to stay here when I am an OAP.

The general readership of the Mail and Express are not going to switch to voting Labour in any great numbers. They are the culture war suckers!

Its a leaked review

I thought Starmer said it on LBC. How is it a leak?

I never said that non-UK citizen should have the right to vote. I actually said that I can understand the issue and it wasn't that important for me for 16 years.

But, what I can't understand is the right of the Commonwealth citizen to vote in GE/referendums. Nowadays most Commonwealth countries don't have the strong tie to the UK anymore as they had when it was established, heck, more and more want to get rid of the king or already have done so. It feels more like a club for trade. How many really live here and would have settled status and could apply for UK citizenship like all other foreigners?

I also would feel that I would rob my daughter the right to choose when she is an adult where to live and work if I would have had to give up my home citizenship, it's very hard to re-gain it. A EU passport is a lot worth for someone who lives in the UK nowadays, but it's also part of her heritage/ancestry.

Maybe I also see commitment to a country as more as a passport.

They are a group he previously wanted though, with statements on Brexit and articles in the DM

I don’t know the readership of the councils that swung to Labour (would be interesting), but it’s those people he’s aiming for.

I fail to see your last paragraph as anything but laughable, senseless hyperbole. There is an age cut-off. Why then is 16 better than 15, 14, 13 or 5? Children under 18 are treated differently from those over with special protections against the responsibilities of adulthood. If they are allowed to take on the right and responsibility that voting is, then they have to take on the rest too. Especially as mumsnetter's teens are all more sensible than most adults apparently and not normal teenagers who only grunt, forget their pe kit and don't tie their shoelaces.

I agree. This was the reason we bit the bullet and naturalised.

I only trust the current Tory government as far as I can throw them, which is not more than a step in front of me.

Especially our current home secretary, how can someone as a child of 2nd (?) generation immegriants be so unwelcoming.

Our former cleaner was the child of a Windrush family. When the scandal broke, they actually went to an immigration lawyer and had all their paperwork checked out.

Because its expensive many do not have £1600 to apply.

Although the fees do vary depending on the status of the person applying. And, obviously, there are payment plans available.

The UK has one of the most expensive naturalisation processes in Europe. Almost as if it doesn't like foreigners...

Early on we didn't have the money. Now that we do, my DC and I don't want to lose our citizenship of an EU country. If not having a vote is the tradeoff that's fine.

My DC were born here. I wonder whether they would have to take the language test?

Oh agreed.

Many people, adults, lack the maturity to be "responsible"

You and others cannot say why anyone suddenly becomes at 18 but at 17 is a blithering idiot, unable to take care of themselves.

Also, a significant number of people do not equate voting with being responsible, one only has to look at the Brexit vote to realise that many people didn't have a clue what they were voting for (either way) & being a citizen of a country does not equal commitment to a country either.

You and others cannot say why anyone suddenly becomes at 18 but at 17 is a blithering idiot, unable to take care of themselves.

Because it's the age that someone becomes an adult legally. And they get the rights that come with being an adult with uk citizenship.

If you think someone should vote at 16/17 then why not 15/16?

You have to have a cut off somewhere. And yes many 18 year olds are immature and unable to make a balanced decision. Many older adults are too.

But we can hardly remove existing legal voting rights from those people.

And it's not a reason to extend voting rights to the under 18s.

It's £280 less for children and oaps. So around £1000 still a lot of money for some.

Only payment plans I've come across are for children. (Happy to be corrected here would mean i could apply sooner)

Adults applying to register as British overseas territories citizens, British Overseas citizens, British protected person or British subjects. It is possible to be registered or naturalised as a British overseas territories citizen in the UK only in exceptional circumstances costs £901.

My response however was to do with the people throwing the "why don't they just apply for citizenship" Finances can for many be an issue. It is expensive to become a British citizen. Its not simply sending off a letter saying "yes please". I'm not suggesting it should be. Just this is what many seem to think when they say "so apply".

@Enko the Dutch government has made provision in case the British government tries it on - if that happens, we will be permitted to naturalised and have dual citizenship. Goes to show what a great reputation the Tories have.

Ah see @Jonei that is a bit problematic. You're now misrepresenting the situation entirely. This all started because you quoted one of my posts and said that "Asking for voter ID for citizens is not the same as expanding the pool of voters to include children and non UK citizens", that "if people want to vote, then they should become citizens", that UK elections are "UK matters for UK Citizens", and that the very idea of voter expansion is "treacherous".

Now, I appreciate that on MN you can usually make all manner of wild claims and not be picked up on it but, in this case I took you to task.

I've asked you (seven times now) why you think actually implementing measures that were designed to manipulate election results in favour of one party is worse than exploring the options to make voting more accessible/representative and you've ignored that question every. single. time. But have found time to respond, at length, to other parts of my posts repeatedly and to call me a fool, narrow-minded, stupid, illiterate, over-invested, argumentative, and now stalkerish.

Do you not want to engage with me now because you'd have to admit you were wrong and/or because you don't have an answer?

If you don't have an answer and/or didn't know that many non-UK citizens could already vote in UK elections that's OK, you could have just said from the outset that you didn't have any basis for your views and avoided all this.

But, you've made it kinda personal now so I'm not gonna drop it (until I forget as I previously said).

Why do people say British citizenship is expensive. Put £30 aside each month for 5 years, it will become £1800.

Indeed.

And it's not just the money. You have to be good enough person. And not undesirable. See Al-Fayed.
You have to disclose even speeding tickets etc. Though they shouldn't have an effect but you still have to dosclose Plus they move the goalposts. It wasn't that long ago good character was only checked 5 years now it's 10. It's no bother to most but mistakes can happen and financial soudness is one of the things considered too. Past bankruptcy and winding company down can be a negative. God forbid you got ccj or something 8 years ago....

Lol.
"I can save over 5 years therefore it's not expensive"😂

Comparatively the UK is expensive. The next worst I have found is the Netherlands, where it's half as much. Germany and France are far less.

We're in a CoL crisis. Lots of people don't have £30 a month spare per person. Typical tone deaf Tory response.

So save for 5 years but its not expensive...

Riiiiight

Agreed. Many do not understand this.