To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

[tigerdrew]

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

My kids’ school had open choirs and auditioned ones. My daughter once didn’t get into an auditioned one. She just tried again the next time and got in. A mix of practice, perseverance and talent. I love listening to all the school choirs but the difference between the ‘top’ ones and the others is stark!

That your daughter is shocked that she can't get whatever she wants shows you have not done a good job of parenting so far, and you'd better change that right now or else she won't cope in society as an adult. At her age she should be more socially advanced than this. She sounds like a spoiled madam who could do with some discipline.

As a music teacher, I strongly believe that anybody can and should be allowed to sing! Being part of a musical ensemble like a choir is great for feeling a sense of belonging and community (especially important in y7) and fosters a love for music.

Yes I have pupils who struggle with pitch, intonation etc. But funnily enough, everything can be improved through practice and familiarity.

I wouldn’t dream of rejecting any child from our choirs, and I despise the elitist mentality some schools have regarding music. Private tuition is expensive and not every parent has the means or sees the value in investing in this for their child.

The bottom line is this: Music is for everyone. The school is wrong. If this is their outlook then they can’t have a particularly thriving music department.

I feel sad for your DD but unfortunately singing is one of those things that you can do or you can’t. I think you have to know your skill so you don’t embarrass yourself to be honest! Those who can’t sing do stick out like a sore thumb in a choir. It was the same when I went to school. I’m sure your DD has other talents. Could she take up an instrument if she likes music?

Rather than railing against the school and the injustice of your daughter not being considered good enough, focus your energies on helping your daughter to understand that no, she might not be good enough to join the choir right now, but if this is something she really wants, she can develop the skills and improve her voice, and together you can look at opportunities for her to do that. Maybe approach the music teacher and ask for some advice - what are they looking for when it comes to the ability levels in the choir and can they recommend a teacher? If it’s a truly competitive choir your daughter may need to be able to sight sing, for example, so if she doesn’t read music, she’ll need to start there.

As a secondary school teacher, I’ll give you a perspective from our side - when you’re trying to run an extracurricular activity that requires a certain level of skill, you do need to be selective to ensure that the children participating are getting the most from the experience. I’ve always run the school Drama club, and I can’t tell you how many angry parents I’ve had over the years demanding to know why their child wasn’t picked for the school play. The school play is an opportunity for children serious about acting who want a chance to develop their performing skills. You can’t develop your performing skills alongside fellow cast members who really can’t act, can’t remember lines, fall apart in nervous giggles the moment they’re on stage, etc. If I let everyone in, the play would become a farce and no one would enjoy being part of it. I always give advice on how children who don’t make it through the audition process can improve, and direct them towards clubs they can join outside of school where they can build skills without the pressure of being in a performance. Very few of them actually go away and follow my advice. They’re quick to get upset when they’re not chosen, but they’re not actually driven to use that disappointment to grow. I wish more children were. You can help your child be one of those kids who grows if you frame this experience for her in the right way.

They let anyone into DD's choir because they are all aged 5-7. By secondary I would expect them to be more selective.

Rubbish. The better the choir and musicians are the more the department will thrive especially if they compete. As PPs have stated a "?choir club" would be different

I was 7 when i auditioned for my primary school choir and was rejected 😭

You need to manage her expectations. Tell her that at an audition not everyone gets in. Focus on her talents and skills otherwise.

My son can’t sing well. Fortunately he knew it. I would never have told him he would succeed at an audition.

We affectionately recognise our ‘failings’ in this house, with humour and acceptance. We aren’t all good at everything. We also encourage the kids if they have potential in an area.

You are going to find secondary school tough for your daughter unless you teach her resilience. It’s ok for her to feel disappointed and for you to feel a bit sad for her. You have no right to be outraged though.

@tigerdrew agree with you and in fact in my daughters school everyone in year 7 is in the choir.

However chamber choir is by audition and not everyone gets in

The problem is these days parents spoil their children and don't want kids to ever learn the realities of life, to ever learn disappointment. They don't want to prepare their child for life, just coddle them and give them whatever they want.

Agree. It's doing children no favours.

YABU. By secondary age children should understand that not everyone gets prizes for everything. You making a big deal about her rejection will make things worse. You win some and you lose some.

I think that's awful. And the replies on here are also awful! I'm in a community choir run on natural voice principles, the idea is that singing is everyone's birthright. No one is 'bad'. You learn by rote rather than sheet music.

I get there some choirs want to run on different lines, but what do they expect of an 11yo?

I'd look up natural voice practitioners near you, there might be a youth choir or you could get one set up, at school or out of it? Start with a workshop.

It's so sad people think it's ok to exclude people from singing like this without a chance to learn and improve.

1. All my academic learning amounted to nothing, as it wasn't relavent in the real work place.
2. No wonder schools are sick of parents - What do you mean?

If she wants to sing, pay for lessons.

I honestly think that this post is exactly what is wrong with parenting today. Overprotective parents who think their child should be picked regardless of how rubbish they are because they don't want their children's feelings hurt

Definitely.
Children are 'protected' from rejection, conflict and any kind of negativity and can't learn how to manage these feelings and situations. It's a life skill and CAN be used positively in age appropriate ways.

And how do the musicians get better? Not all musicians just have innate musical talent despite what most people seem to think!!

you want a thriving music department? You run ensembles that are open and inclusive!

I work in a state school in an area which is not particularly affluent. Our extra-curricular is open and all pupils are encouraged to come along no matter what their musical experience or ability.

We have huge uptake for GCSE and A-Level because we have broken through the mentality of “I can’t do music because I’m not ‘musical’”.

Yes we have more advanced ensembles open to only our exam group students, but we have open ensembles for all instruments and voices.

The problem here for me would be if this is the only choir in the school, and it is auditioned, it is killing the love of music for a lot of pupils.

This is bullshit. Everyone can sing

In grammar school areas, your DD would have been already told that she's good enough for grammar school or not, based on her 11+ results. If she'd tried out for inter-school sports teams at primary, she would have been accepted or rejected for the team already. She must have taken SATs and been told her results from those, right?

It's not too young to learn that you don't always get what you want, at all. It's not too young to learn that sometimes you lose.

You have 2 choices. Encourage her to think "poor me, it's someone else's fault if I'm not good enough" or, get her some singing lessons and encourage her to try again next year.

I had joint singing lessons with someone who was absolutely tone deaf in secondary school. I really wish the singing teacher told her not to bother sooner, it was painful.

Yes. And I think OP's daughter is the type who grows up, tries out for Idol, is turned down and makes a fool of themselves on tv by carrying on and not respecting the judges wishes, throws a tantrum and embarrasses themself. I think we can now understand why those types of contestants can't accept the judges' decisions. Their parents obviously never parented them and told them they can do whatever they want. So when they're told no, they just can't comprehend it. And so go into meltdown. As entertaining as those Idol contestants are, it's sad they were raised that way and it's sad they meltdown on tv from the rejection, because they were raised to have such rose-coloured unrealistic expectations of life. We now know how contestants like that come to be like that.

Fantastic post.

I'm a decent (amateur) singer and sing in a couple of weak/struggling parish choirs as well as other, more challenging stuff. They're never going to be brilliant, but with work and patience they can sound pretty good and enrich services. A school that only has an audition-entry choir and not also a non-auditioning one is frankly taking itself far too seriously and its educational purpose far too lightly.

I learnt to sing as an adult with vocal lessons. 97% of people can learn to sing. But the voice is a musical instrument that must be trained and learnt how to play.

Since singing in competitive choirs I've learnt that a huge amount of singers take lessons. It's not the innate talent we are led to believe.

It's the same as track sports. Everyone has arms and legs, but without dedication and training not everyone can run competitively.

No, that's the whole point.

Yes she is young and has high emotions but can't be upset that her voice was not good enough for the choir then you ask if YABU..

Of course YABU one bad singer in the choir would really stand out.

tigerdrew · Today 01:26
Do you really go around telling young kids they aren't good at something? That seems so sad”

Yes, you don’t put it that bluntly though. Rather, play up their strengths and tell them that everyone is good at different things.

If you just tell them they’re marvellous at everything, they’re in for a big shock when they go to school.