To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

[tigerdrew]

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

Congenital amusia, hmm I'd hazard a no actually.

You need relative pitch to sing in a choir to know when you're out of tune. Maybe your dd doesn't have relative pitch?

The larger schools I've worked at have had two tiers of ensembles: the main school ensembles and then a couple of training groups. That only works because the department is big enough to have enough staff to run them all.

In a smaller department I can see why there might be one ensemble and why they might make it audition entry. It's very difficult to be all things to all people and running a choir for people who can read music, sing well, and are looking to develop their technique is a very different focus to trying to get non-music readers who are tone deaf to sing a melody in tune.

Yes my kid didn’t get into the netball team and not allowed to go to the club. But she knows and respects because others were better. You really can’t have a choir with someone’s whose voice sounds like a cheese grater.

Agreed @Flibbyjibby @ShoesoftheWorld

No wonder kids have anxiety these days. The school could be offering an inclusive activity that lifts the soul, promotes community and inclusiveness, costs peanuts and helps children learn life isn't all about exams and grades.

Instead they're saying nope, you're shit at this at 11, don't bother, we don't want you.

And as for posters calling a disappointed child a spoilt madam and similar names, you should be ashamed of yourselves. The guff about an entirely misconceived ide a of 'resilience ' is just that, guff. Resilience is not .magically switching off disappointment, or having armour-pla ted confidence.

It sounds like being picked for the football team as opposed to going to the football after school club. A level of skill is required which your dd did not meet. She can either practice and aim to improve for next year or try her hand at something else. The best you can do is support her and help her understand it's impossible to be good at everything and that's ok.

Surely you have to be able to sing well to be in a choir?

You can really see the posters that are 'everyone wins a prize' type friends rather than parents on this thread. They can't see they are not preparing their child for life, they are creating anxiety. I feel sorry for their kids not being prepared for the world.

YABU!!
at least she chose to audition - at my school choir tryouts were mandatory (one on one to the choir master) and you either got general choir, chapel choir (for the best) or no choir. Terrifying!
in any case it's a choir and the kids need some raw material to work with. Surely she had a realistic idea of her singing talent by age 11?

A lot of PPs have repeated the myth that anyone can be taught to sing. This is nof the case because some people are afflicted with amusia and cannot discern different pitches. Some people are also deaf or hearing-impaired.

Do you really go around telling young kids they aren't good at something? That seems so sad...
Why lie though?
They learn they can’t be good at everything. You have to support them with what they are good at.

What do you suggest I do when my 11 year old comes and tells me they really want to be in the choir and has an audition the next days lunch break. Say oh absolutely don't bother, you're shit at singing
no, that would be unkind to say you are shit at singing but you could be more tactful and kindly discourage her. You then encourage with the things she is good at whether it’s arts, sport or something else.

@tigerdrew im quite a sensitive parent but I had a conversation with my 5 year old last week that they could be anything they want but they can’t do everything. I explained I’m great at English but not at science.

If your DD really wants to be in the choir she isn’t at the right level, she needs singing lessons first.

Get her singing lessons if it’s worrying her. Or she’s very keen. Or, join an out of school more inclusive choir.

I've run a Junior Choir for years. Years 7 & 8. All girls It's a training choir for the upper years' choir, which is selective. Most of my girls have zero singing experience. I do run auditions, just to get a vague idea what I've got to work with. We rehearse weekely, and run an intense 3 day camp at the beginning of Term 2 to prepare for the main school music concert. I think anyone keen enough to endure an audition with a complete stranger and an accompanist deserves a place in the choir. Excellent attendance is compulsory if you want to attend camp, which is hugely popular among the students. Some years are better than others, but we all work bloody hard and by the middle of the year they are always sounding fabulous. Retention into Year 8 is over 90%, and the girls just get better and better.

It is my job to train them. Their job is to show up, and be committed to working together.

I'm very sorry for your DD's experience, OP.

I have a dreadful singing voice and was in the primary school choir but only allowed to mime.
I don’t think I’ve ever sung out loud around anyone since, although I do sing at home alone as I love music.

@tigerdrew
Just because she wants to be in the choir, doesn't mean she has what it takes to do so. They have auditions for a reason, I myself am a performer and have auditioned many times for parts that I wanted but didn't get. That is life! Quite frankly it seems like a good opportunity for you to teach her some life lessons here, she's in secondary school now so she is old enough to understand that life isn't always fair.
Also you can absolutely tell a child, in a kind and constructive way that while you think she has a wonderful voice it's very competitive to get into choirs and to not be disappointed if she doesn't get a place. Otherwise you're setting them up for even bigger disappointment.
From a singer myself. If singing is something she wants to do and YOU believe she has the ability there, then YOU should facilitate this with singing lessons so she can learn how to sing properly, she may then get a chance in a choir. If you don't think her voice is worth paying for lessons, then you shouldn't think it's worth a place in a choir. Sorry, but true.

Side note...you can absolutely hear a bad singer in a group of singers! It's dreadful.

YABU

Auditions indicate that a certain standard is needed. If your DD didn't reach that standard, then she doesn't get a place this time. It's disappointing for her, but it's how these things work, especially for clubs and teams where there's a competitive or performance element.

I remember I was 11 when I didn't get a main children's part in a play I'd auditioned for - I was disappointed, I think I even cried a bit as I loved being on stage and performing. After a hug and a good night's rest, I went in the next day and asked what was wrong with my audition - I got some feedback, made some changes and auditioned the next time, for a smaller part, which I got. The reality was that, while I enjoyed drama, I wasn't that great at it. I was good at the musical and dance bits, but for actual acting, I was ok but not good enough. Eventually, I moved over to the band/orchestra/sound effects side of things, where I was actually much happier.

It's not inappropriate for her to learn about disappointment and her own strengths and weaknesses. It's natural for us to want to protect our DC from anything that upsets them, but the world isn't going to let us. Learning about coping with disappointment from relatively safe things like not getting a place in a competitive team or group, is safer than being confronted with it when the stakes are much higher.

Model for her that it's ok to be disappointed but it's not the end of the world. To quote Bingo from Bluey: Have a little cry, dust yourself off, the show must go on.

Unfortunately, we can’t always have what we want. Watching our children being upset is heartbreaking but it’s a life lesson for us as well as them. We need to accept that our perfect children aren’t. Support her and love her and sing in the car; I’m sure she’ll find her niche. As others have said though, suggest that the school has a choir for children who love to sing. As she improves perhaps she’ll be able to re-audition.

I work with young adults in a totally unrelated profession. For ( what it seems like) the first time in their lives I have to tell them that occasionally their skills "Need Improvement " or "wasn't up to the expected standard".
Most of them take it in the chin but occasionally I come across a mollycoddled individual who has grown up believing that they are perfect in every way because that's what they've been told or lead to believe.
The dose of reality I provide sometime doesn't go down well.

We need to encourage them to do better. I agree with that, but also teach them resilience, how to handle failure and and recover from it.

Otherwise we are just setting them up to be snowflakes!

Do you really go around telling young kids they aren't good at something? That seems so sad

Of course we do OP. Don't make a fool of your daughter anymore. Encourage her to get a new interest or hobby

I would play it down. It’s not a big deal - you can’t be good at everything.

I see singing as a recreational activity, not a competitive sport. Pp have said singing lessons/reading sheet music are required - basically rich parents and a tiny handful of 11 year olds.

Nothing wrong with kids learning that things don't always go their way, they need to persevere, other people need to be considered etc.

But the 'oh well you'll be crushed by capitalism we might as well start now' mentality is terrible. There are recreational activities that are worth doing for their own sake.

The sports/competitive mentality is what put me off exercise at school - if you're not naturally good at something, you get the message not to bother. There's nothing wrong with doing something for enjoyment, without competition coming into it.

I don’t see a problem with the principle of an audition-only choir for this age group. My kids’ school - and in fact my school when I was a kid - had an audition-only choir and a choir anyone who wanted to join could join.

It’s possible to not be amazing at something but enjoy it and derive benefit from it - exercise and sport are like this and in my day so many children were deterred from exercise because school sports failed to appreciate the difference between being good at sports and still enjoying them/enjoying exercise more broadly.

Personally, I think if they haven’t got the time and resources to run both an inclusive and an exclusive one, they should just run an inclusive one.

I suppose it is easy to say they should also run an unauditioned choir, but perhaps they don't have the time? Unfortunately, whilst it is not popular, the pursuit of excellence and complete inclusion are often at odds with each other. Do you think that the Methody College Choir who sung in Westminster Abbey alongside the Abbey Choir at the coronation were an unauditioned group?

I sing at quite a high level and in a range of unauditioned and auditioned ensembles (including conducting a few of the unauditioned ones). I love all my choirs, but the auditioned ones are clearly more challenging, tackle a wider ranger of repertoire and achieve higher standards of performance. We need both types of groups to creat a thriving musical life.

As others have said, you need to support your daughter and let her focus on other strengths she may have or look for another choir that she can join.

Yabu. Would you want someone who couldn’t play the violin in the orchestra? No and they would absolutely be heard over the other musicians. She will be better at some stuff than others. Not a big deal