To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

[tigerdrew]

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

I'll always remember the school play where I was given the 'role' of 'Villager'. This meant that I, and the other two dozen or so villagers, had to sit quietly and motionless at the back of the stage and.... watch the talented kids act in the roles that had speaking parts and/or actually did something that the parents would want to watch them doing.

I wouldn't have minded quite so much, except we were made to turn up for every single rehearsal - even though I was already very accomplished indeed (if I do say so myself) at sitting quietly on the floor!

My primary choir just let anyone in, we must of sounded awful haha! I cannot sing at all, but I LOVE it ! In this house we listen to music and sing, the TV is hardly on, just music .. But I still didn't make it into the comprehensive choir. I'm not a good singer, and I needed the truth. Or I would of tried X factor and made an absolute fool of myself 🤣 I thought I was the next Cher haha!

This will stand her in good stead.

All things are not equal. Not everybody gets a prize (nor should they). Some people are better at some things than others.

If numbers are limited - which in a choir they often are, should a person who can't sing take the place of one that can?

Oh and fyi - all 11 year olds definitely don't sound the same.

I'm actually on your side. My gran had the worst singing voice ever, and a professional voice coach once said "I could make you sing - anyone has the ability to sing if they're taught correctly."

School's for learning and encouraging, if her singing isn't good enough for the choir, she needs extra support, not told she's not good enough.

To put it into perspective, if you do a maths or georgraphy test in year nine and get a grade D, the teacher doesn't say "Not good enough, give up."

Hardly the same thing. Required academic learning compared to a voluntary choir - which clearly stated auditions. No wonder schools are sick of parents

Nah, 20 odd years ago our choir and orchestra was audition/skills based not 'anyone can join in'. I got into choir first time, I had to wait til 2nd year to get into orchestra as I was bottom of the heap at Flute AND there were already loads of flutes so no room for a 'just about good enough' player.

Choir/Orchestra are equivalent to 'sports team' here, they're not a club, they're not an 'improving at this skill' session.

They learn pieces and perform at events and competitions (or certainly did way back when I was involved in both).

Having someone next to you who is off key, out of time or playing bum notes is off putting and yes, you CAN hear it in the audience.

Sorry, I think you have failed here in not preparing her to have realistic expectations of the process, or her ability. If she wants to improve at singing, get her singing lessons.

To me a child wanting to join (examples only) art club who has no talent is different to joining a violin orchestra who has never played a note or a competition swim club for a child who can't swim

If you can't sing you can't sing

If numbers are limited - which in a choir they often are, should a person who can't sing take the place of one that can?

But they often aren't limited in numbers - so the children with good voices will get in, but their efforts will be wrecked as they are drowned out by the bad one(s)!

The very nature of out-of-tune voices is that, even in amongst 30 tuneful voices, they are the one that you will instantly hear most clearly of all!

Yea people can learn to swim, play the violin, sing with lessons

If you're there to be taught something, it's fine for all-comers (assuming you fulfil any other basic requirements - are old enough etc.); but if you're there to develop, share, enjoy and hopefully demonstrate your skills to (maybe paying) audiences, you do need to have some skills to demonstrate in the first place.

But sometimes that's just life.

Nobody would listen to a choir which contained bad singers, though.
If people cannot sing, they cannot be taught to do so. You either can or you can't sing. People singing out of tune are really obvious in part singing.
I've sung in various choirs throughout my life (well-known ones).
People wouldn't pay to listen to bad ones. Why should your daughter ruin things for listeners?
I've also run a couple of choirs. I wouldn't accept someone whose voice ruined the overall effect.
YABU. When I was at school I was terrible at games. Should I have been allowed to join the hockey team, just because I wanted to?

Nobody can be taught to sing in tune.

Sorry, your kid's not good enough to sing in the choir. Get her some lessons and she can audition again in a year.

To answer your question - no, it's not horrible, it's real life.

I’m afraid I see it just as I’d see trying out for a sports team. Not everyone will get in. But I am sorry she’s been so hurt by it. Is there anything else she could try out for instead?

Aw I’m sorry for your daughter. It must be so tough to see her be into something good for her, when she has the confidence to do it, but not be accepted to do it.
i take my toddler to a music class where the teacher says anyone can sing, and often voices her upset at people being told they can’t sing well enough etc. The one day, at school or somewhere else, that changes and they are taught otherwise. So it must be so confusing for children to be taught they can do anything then overnight it seems to all change.

is there a another group in school she can join? Or a group outside of school that is less selective?

Resilience is serious lacking in youngsters today. She can't sing. Find her something she can shine at doing.

YABU to think that rejecting someone from a choir based on their voice is anything other than expected. I bet she wouldn't be chosen for the football team either.

I think this is harsh. Singing is often something we naturally, as children and babies, love to do. It is only when we are shamed that we lose that joy. I think it is wrong to shame a child for something as naturally joyful as singing. A PP incorrectly stated that you cannot be taught to sing in tune. Untrue. OP, your daughter may need some professional lessons to learn to hear her voice aligning with the notes. If you are able, I'd encourage lessons. Please reassure her that although she might not have the right voice for this choir, she should continue to enjoy singing.

The ShellBeach, barring a signifiant physical or mental impediment, what you say sounds colossal bollocks.

Why is being told 'you don't have the requisite skills for this activity' in any way 'shaming' now?

It's simply a statement of fact!

I don't feel shamed if told I don't have the skill of ooh, walking, horse riding, flying a plane, playing bass guitar etc etc - even though some of those things I did used to be very skilled at, the fact is, right now, I do not have those skills!

Was the OP's child held up in front of the whole school and everyone booed her after it was publically announced shes not a good enough singer to join the choir? That would be shaming. Simply being told 'nope you didn't pass the audition' is absolutely not though!

I disagree that people who can't sing cannot be taught though. Some people are out of tune because they lack the confidence, the voice control, the breathing, to hit the notes required. They can hear that they're out of tune or not hitting notes, but they just don't know how to do it.

That can be taught in most cases.

People who cannot hear that they are off key however, thats harder and I do agree, most people who are tone deaf can't learn that.

What’s the alternative? False hope? Letting her hold the choir back so they can’t enter competitions or be taken seriously at events? This ‘everyone is a winner’ stuff is ridiculous, must we cosset children at every turn until they’re 18 only to discover the world is actually competitive and ruthless?

As a music teacher I’m 99% sure that this is not to do with her actual voice but rather that she was finding it very hard to sing in tune, and the choir director probably just doesn’t have enough time on their hands to work from the beginning with weaker kids on ear training as well as teaching the stronger kids to sing harmonies and so on (which is really hard to do if some of the group is not singing in tune).

The good thing is that it’s not about talent, it’s just about training the ear to hear musically. Nearly everyone can learn to sing in tune. Any kind of music lessons will help and the teacher will be able to work on this with her.

Of course you can.

If she's serious about singing, get her voice lessons. Or, maybe she could join a church choir? They generally let anyone join.