To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

[tigerdrew]

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

I wouldn't have thought the music teacher said 'you can't sing', maybe that was the implied message the daughter is now quoting.

A choir is at year 7 level is the same as a sports team or a drama production. It's based on talent not enthusiasm.

I think the OP needs to stop wrapping her daughter in cotton wool, and use this as s life lesson. There will be something that the daughter is good at that others won't be.

There will also be 'singing for fun' opportunities and singing lessons if she really enjoys it that much.

But also, how do we get the next generation of professionals? The BBC Singers don't just pop into existence because a few people had a go at singing in an unauditioned group
I agree.
There's a range of ensembles out there and if we are serious about getting better representation of state school children into the arts then we need to invest in having opportunities for talented musicians and artists, as well as those who have demonstrated potential.

Taking the view that if there's only one choir (remembering that these are enrichment activities done by staff who volunteer) it should be for anyone who wants a go, regardless of aptitude, ensures that any students who are musically talented or have an aptitude (and could come on well in a choir without their parents forking out for private vocal tuition) don't get the chance.

If she really can't sing and lots of people can't instead of focusing on the 'can't' find the other things she is brilliant at. Help her find her strengths and manage her disappointment. Also just because one person says something doesn't make it true. She might not be the 'voice of an angel' but she may be perfectly good enough for a different choir. Try and change your perspective, your responses will help your dd a great deal.

This is how those on X Factor get on it. They've been lied to for years by well- meaning people that they're amazing at singing when they're really not. Then they're genuinely hurt and surprised when Simon tells them the truth.

I was and still am a terrible singer, I absolutely loved to perform and sing as a young child, still dream about being the lead in a westend musical. I remember the class choirs (where everyone is included) I was politely asked if I could mime because I was putting everyone else off 😂I was devastated but they were dead right I was woeful

But that’s exactly my point. What’s wrong with a jolly singalong for children at school level? Why exclude the many children who would like to do precisely that very thing?

Hmm sometimes I think the parents take these sorts of “disappointments” more to heart than the children.

I think we’ve all seen the parents that argue with the umpire at sports day about who won a race while the child is stood looking mortified muttering It’s fine mum leave it.

You don’t have to lie to anyone that they can sing. You let them sing in the all-comers choir regardless of whether they can sing. Believe me, if the teacher is good enough the choir will sound amazing. We have an all-comers choir at my DC school and they sound fantastic. The only exclusionary criteria is if a child doesn’t engage or attend regularly.

Whats wrong with a jolly sing along for all children?

See the quote above.

There should be room for all levels of choirs. The problem is that there are lots of people who think that auditioned groups for children should not exist, not that community choirs should not exist.

Pursuit of musical excellence is just as important as inclusion in the musical life of our country. Unfortunately not every school or community can offer everything to everyone and we need to take a wider view of things before condemning a particular school for having an auditioned, rather than unauditioned group.

My secondary school had no musical groups in it at all. We had one music teacher who was, as far as I could tell, a miserable drunk stuck teaching kids with largely no interest in his subject. It was only because of a local music centre that my parents took me to, run by volunteers, that I was exposed to music and then only because the lady that took the young children's choir at that centre told my mum I had a good voice and pointed me to a very good girl's choir in the next town over and that my parents prioritised spending their time and limited money on supporting me to sing. It would have been far more inclusive for my school to have run an auditioned group for free in my school than relying on parents having the resources to fund participation outside school.

Well you get to choose between the few who are in it for competition vs the many who are in it for pleasure.

In a SCHOOL I vote the latter.
And with a good enough teacher who can sub-divide the singers it need not exclude talent at all.

The same goes for sport.

Because you have to balance that against the needs of the smaller talented group of children who can flourish and potentially go on to be highly skilled musicians if they are given the right opportunities to develop and you only have limited resources at your disposal.

It is no different to any other talent-driven activity.

Yup. And in my view, the needs of the children who would like to sing are just as important. And with a good enough teacher, both can be accommodated.

YABU. Do your child a favour and teach them some emotional resilience it will pay dividends in life when they suffer bigger disappointments.
However if she is really interested in singing get her signed up for some lessons from a professional singing teacher and ask their honest opinion on her ability. If they say she has some potential then she can try out again.

Yes because it’s that easy for many parents to pay for such a thing.

Also, most children want to sing in a choir with others rather than alone in a room.

Your response just illustrates your utter lack of ability to see other people’s point of view

Well that is your opinion. Do you have any evidence that it is better for encouraging more diversity in the performing arts professionally?

I'm sorry, but how do you "subdivide" singers within a choir at different abilities? This isn't maths lessons... you need everyone sing the same piece at the same time or it isn't a choir. I suppose you might be able to get a few solos but if you start having semi-choruses doing hard stuff then lots of kids will be stood around doing nothing for a large parts of the rehearsal or you are going to need separate rehearsals and essentially you have an auditioned group within the wider group and it takes up even more time to direct.

I've directed a far few choirs and the reality is that you are only able to go at the pace of your least able singers in the vast majority of cases.

I think that with limited resources one cannot do everything. Taking an auditioned group is very different to taking an unauditioned one. The idea that music teachers are only "good enough" if they can do both and have the time to do both is totally unrealistic and unfair on them.

To be clear, I have no issue with community choirs - I think they’re great! I just don’t enjoy participating in them.

But I’m an adult, and have had opportunities in the past. Most of those opportunities in respect of singing came from my (auditioned) school choir. A non-auditioned one would not have provided the same opportunities (and actually our school did have both some years, other years there wasn’t enough take-up to run the non-auditioned one).

I don’t see a problem with children with potential being supported to reach it. There was always opportunity to sing at school without being part of the formal choir - assemblies, music lessons etc. Is this no longer the case?

What is really sad are young adults who completely collapse at the first setback.

Your child is not a young kid. She is an 11 year-old. Infantilising her does her no favours.

A lot of parents can’t pay for private tuition, you’re right so where does that leave the gifted musicians at school that require nurturing or tuition or valuable experience to access a place at music college or a scholarship?

Their only choice would be a fun community school choir?

There are plenty of spaces for a child to sing for fun which isn’t choir.
Local groups/ clubs , teen friends getting together and putting their songs on TikTok, buy a second hand karaoke machine and invite their mates over?

where does that leave the gifted musicians at school that require nurturing or tuition or valuable experience to access a place at music college or a scholarship?

There are schemes for those kids.
Op admits her dc is not in the gifted category

https://www.a-y-m.org.uk/other-funding-opportunities/

https://www.gov.uk/music-dance-scheme

Again, it seems to be a choice between nurturing the gifted vs allowing everyone to enjoy music.

In some schools at least.

Other schools (eg my DC state school) seem to manage this perfectly well.