To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

[tigerdrew]

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

Had this happen to me when I was 11 too, knocked my confidence in singing in front of people for a very long time - what I learnt as an adult though is they wanted kids who could sing in a choral blended style which takes a certain type of voice, I learnt my voice is much better at folk and country style music. Lots of professional singers were refused by choirs, it's not a true judgement of your voice, some music teachers are just dreadful at explaining this and its so sad if it then stops people feeling they can do something that brings them joy. Maybe you and daughter could look up your local rock choir or even get singstar out so it doesn't built into an issue

When I was eleven we were singing in class. The teacher stood near me and said someone is singing flat. He told a group of us to mime. To this day I dont know if I was the bad singer. I have never sung in front of anyone since.

As I read it the choir master thought her singing was so bad she must have been doing it deliberately, found that she wasn't so excluded her from the compulsory choir that everybody else was attending. This meant that during choir she had to sit alone, and when the choir went out for performances she had to sit in school, alone, with no classes.

That's a bit harsh isn't it? It's easier said than done. Teachers should be encouraging them to improve on their skills. Not reject them and make that person feel bad about themselves

I have never sung in front of someone since Is that the end of the world though, it’s not that desperately sad!

Lots of people aren’t particularly good singers.
It’s better to have some self awareness even if that just means you want to improve a bit? Or would you rather live with the delusion that you’re singing like a bird?

We could probably all remember a time when we realised our singing voices were a bit flat; a failed choir audition, your brother falling about laughing when he heard you singing in your bedroom, your mates at school ribbing you or whatever.
Seeing your family sing Christmas carols or whatever at Christmas without a care for getting the words or notes wrong?

Im well aware I can’t sing well. I’ll still join in with Happy Birthday, sing at funerals etc and put any self conscious feelings aside or sing to myself, I sung to my babies.

Not many people think their voice is something that others would stand listening to, admire or pay money to hear.

Its a huge disservice to older children to shield them from that truth.
If the choir master doesn’t tell them, their mates sure as hell will.

Bear in mind that there will still be pupil:teacher ratios to be maintained, so there will be an upper limit to the number of people who can take part. Just because she didn’t get in doesn’t mean she’s rubbish at singing, it just means that she wasn’t in the top however many spaces they had. Yes it’s a shame that she’s disappointed, but if there isn’t enough space to meet the demand then there will unfortunately be people who want to take part but can’t.

My son had the same happen to him when he started junior school (he was 7!) He'd been in the infant school choir but in juniors they split it into a boys nd a girls choir which they auditioned for. Granted he couldn't sing particularly well but he was very quiet so wouldn't have been drowning the others out, he was very passionate and loved singing and he was 7!

If you could afford it, do you think private singing lessons would help to develop some singing ability
I would suggest this too.Most people can sing but need some help with technique. Ask around to find a teacher who would make it fun for DD.

I'm really surprised by so many responses in support of auditions. For a small group to represent the school in a competition, sure, but to join the choir in the first place? Surely extra curricular activities should be encouraged for everyone? I'm in a large community choir. We don't have auditions and actually do sound pretty good despite many of us (myself included) not being brilliant singers. It's all about having fun anyway! I just hope this doesn't affect your daughter's self esteem in the long run. I agree with you that there's just no need for a school choir to sound perfect and giving children the opportunity to try new things should be the priority.

YABU school teaches these lessons. Auditions mean some people get in and some don't. You tell her you understand she's sad, but this how auditions (college/uni interviews/job interviews) work. It's a very good life lesson to learn how to handle disappointment.

As the kids get older in senior school they want the best kids for things, my son is very sporty and plays for most of the teams, he has friends however who aren't and the other kids would get annoyed if someone was letting the team down. My son isn't academic so can't do that side of things. It's life.

I think school choir is being heavily romanticised on this thread 😂

At primary school it’s just “fun” “trying new things” and “letting everyone join in”
Youve got to love small children singing their hearts out with no idea they’re mostly out of key!
However older children develop self awareness, begin to recognise their own strengths and weaknesses and appreciate other’s ability. It’s part of growing up.

At secondary school, the better singers should absolutely be allowed to flourish in a choir without the teacher having to focus most of the time teaching singing technique to less able students.

We’re just talking about a music teacher volunteering their time to run a choir group with a limited number of places .

Where are the resources or the staff to have an all inclusive whole school choir?

All these parents complaining and claiming they were scarred for life by a music teacher should perhaps set up a choir welcoming every child in their own time 🫤

But what about the children that can sing? Shouldn’t they be able to sing with others who can harmonise etc.

It's a good learning curve that you don’t get accepted for everything in life, there are times that you are actually told no. Due to the watering down in schools it’s all about taking part nonsense we have young adults who cannot cope with rejection.

It is part of life. In the scheme of life this is a bump in her journey, but she will survive and find something she is great at.

School choirs are for children to enjoy and remember all their lives

In secondary school a choir is often about more than fun enjoyment for kids.

Some will be following a path into further training and musical qualifications, progressing to singing in orchestras or studying music at college.

So no, a school choir for older pupils isn’t just about jolly fun and fond memories. It can be a real chance for pupils to have their talent nurtured and gain valuable experience required to access college courses or musical training.

If numbers are limited, what’s the alternative to auditions? Names out of a hat?

I'm interested in whether the pps who see music as an activity that should be fully inclusive regardless of ability, whether they feel the same about sports, drama and other areas? So names out of a hat for who plays in a football game, or gets the lead in the school play?

I sometimes thing people thing music is a less legitimate subject of study, which I don't think it is. The problem with accepting everyone, is it means that the best students have no space to expand their abilities. I think a medium has to be struck.

The problem with accepting everyone, is it means that the best students have no space to expand their abilities. I think a medium has to be struck.

This. As someone who used to sing to a high standard, I’ve pretty much had to give up as it’s all community choirs round my area - not auditioned and no sheet music given (plus everything is too low for me, even though I’m a mezzo not a soprano). It’s great for people with limited musical background, but I don’t find it enjoyable. A bit like most sports are more fun when you’re playing with / competing with players of similar ability.

So many people grow up thinking they can’t sing because a music teacher told them they couldn’t or rejected them from the choir or told them to mime. I’ve sung with many adults who have perfectly fine voices but still have a fear of singing because of bad treatment as a child. At 7 little girls voices are still developing and with practice most people learn to sing tunefully. If the school wants a specialist singing group they should run two choirs -rather like first and second teams. It’s so sad when schools can’t find away to be inclusive and let all the children have a go at whatever they want. God knows there’ll be years when they can’t.

Oops just seen Year 7, not 7 year old.

I sometimes thing people thing music is a less legitimate subject of study, which I don't think it is. The problem with accepting everyone, is it means that the best students have no space to expand their abilities. I think a medium has to be struck
This. All this "inclusive unless it's a professional ensemble" misses the point that most musicians are not professional and there are a LOT of talented amateur musicians. Many high quality amateur ensembles are good and can play the repertoire they do because the musicians are a certain standard. Same for auditioned school choirs, school orchestras, regional youth ensembles, etc.

It's ok to not be good enough for an auditioned ensemble. That's why there's a range of activities and ensembles, just not all of them will be offered at school by staff volunteering.

bad treatment as a child..a music teacher told them they couldn’t sing.

I see your point and posters are giving anecdotes about teachers, but nowadays with school emphasis on personal development and positive reinforcement, it’s unlikely a teacher would tell a pupil “you can’t sing”.

A mate or your brother remarking “it sounds like a cat’s being strangled!” or a comment on your TikTok but a music teacher? No.

But also, how do we get the next generation of professionals? The BBC Singers don't just pop into existence because a few people had a go at singing in an unauditioned group.

You know on the early stages of Britain's Got Talent where you have people coming who are absolutely awful and humiliate themselves. That's because noone told them they were awful, or worse still, told them they were good.

Why spoil it for others who have some talent (for singing in this case) by letting People join group activities when they have no talent.

Just find something she's good at and do that.

I’ve sung with many adults who have perfectly fine voices but still have a fear of singing because of bad treatment as a child

I am going to be brutal, but one teacher with some remark about singing really shouldn't carry that much weight to cause fear in adulthood. I have both hands left and still love doing trying unsuccessfully things even though my teacher called my knitted sock a horror movie material. To be fair to her, it was. My art teacher often stood over my "art" silently trying to figure out what to say😂 I am still creating art abominations happily.
As I said. I also failed a very good choir audition due to not good enough voice, which I physically can't do anything about. It happens. But carry it into adulthood as fear is different issue though and I don't think it's fair to place all that as some teacher's fault.

Yeah I agree @Schroedingersimmigrant

I didn’t get into choir but I wasn’t told I was bad- my name just wasn’t on the Notice board for choir. I’m not scarred.

I doubt the teacher was pulling faces and shaking their head like Simon Cowell and declaring Urgh You can’t sing.

So you’re saying all those people in community choirs who clearly love participating should be given the boot so that you personally can sing with only the best?

Isn't there room for all levels of choir? Why don’t you start an auditioned one? It’s fine for adults to do this. We’re talking about children in a school though, where there may be only one choir. And as you’ve observed yourself, so many people do love singing.

Well no @Famzonhol I think that poster was pointing out that an auditioned school choir shouldn’t be the same as a community choir?
She was giving her own experience of community choirs and pointing out the disadvantages of using that model in secondary school.

Its a choir to nurture the skills and give valuable experience to more accomplished talented pupils who may go on to pursue music in further education, join orchestras or a career on the musical stage, rather than a jolly sing along.