To be appalled by school toilet restrictions

[GoodWitch65]

Had a period talk with my DD age 11 and mentioned to have a pouch with sanitary products to be kept in her school bag just in case. She told me they are not allowed to use toilets at school during the class, only during the break. I was very surprised, growing up in European country this was never a problem in my school, everyone was allowed to use toilets whenever they needed. Spoke to a friend of mine, her kids go to another school, apparently this a standart practice I just can't wrap my head around how and why? My friend's DS used to have frequent kidney infections and wasn't allowed to use the toilet when he needed to, she had to get a note from GP to make him 'exempt' from the rules so he could use the toilet. Also her DD has started her period and had asked to use the toilet but was told no, poor girl had bled through her clothes, left a blood stain on her chair and got told off by the teacher for doing so! My friend sent numerous complaints to school but no to avail. I feel like I want to make some changes in 'toilet rules' at school but not sure where to start. It's a basic human need, even prisoners get to use the toilet when they need, why would primary school children be denied?

In my school if students were allowed constant free access to the toilet I’d barely have anyone in a lesson, they’d be off on a wander. Agree with the posters who say many people have zero idea what it is like trying to manage 1000+ adolescents in a building, many of whom have no attention span because it’s been destroyed by unrestricted mobile phone use, few boundaries at home and an enormous sense of entitlement. And although it may not sound like it, I’m one of the ones that really likes kids!

"never more than two hours before they go".

Two hours is long! I've needed to go to the loo within two hours.

You said shop floor workers can't go to the loo when they want to. Ive worked in a shop. Ive went to the loo whenever I wanted to.

I do think that schools are ridiculous on things like this. We want them to be schools not prisons .

Huh? Any kid that does that should be expelled.

'Huh?' Have you any idea how difficult it is to expel a pupil? They would have to have done a hell of a lot more than vandalise a toilet. You need a paper trail a mile long of the many, many things they would need to have done to warrant permanent exclusion, and even then they often get it overturned on appeal. On the rare occasions they do get permanently excluded, they just get placed in another school and behave the same way there. I've known students who have assaulted other students and staff and still don't get kicked out.

I know students need to be able to go to the toilet (although teachers manage not to - I've never gone to the toilet during a lesson in my 27 years of teaching), but it is not a simple problem to solve. Worse things than vandalism happen in school toilets, and the disruption to lessons can be significant, even in my lovely school.

You said "I've never gone to the toilet in 27 years of teaching". Teachers have more breaks than students though at school though. If you are a secondary school teacher.

In Ireland anyway. Secondary teachers I know teach about 4 classes a day, then lesson prep for the rest of the day. So more opportunities to go to the toilet.
The students are in class all day.

Of course students should be allowed to go to the toilet.

I think there Is also a general sense in secondary schools of - the adults should have total power over the teens. And the teens should not have much power at all.

It is too strict and totalitarian. Nearly everyone I talk to remembers school as being like a prison.

You're told to sit down, shut up, what to wear, where you can walk to , not given toilet breaks.

Teens have human rights too.

It's degrading.

No one should have to have an 'exempt' note to go to the toilet. It's a basic human right.

None of my kids will ever have an exempt note. If they need the toilet they will go. I wouldn't allow anyone to be told they're not allowed to use the toilet at a certain time. Especially my children.

Yet another poster with absolutely zero idea how poor behaviour is in (secondary) schools right now.

Children allowed to go to the toilets whenever they like is actually a huge safeguarding problem. Vaping is rife. Sitting in loos for whole lessons on their phones (often even calling parents to chat who do nothing about this) is rife. Eating in the loos is rife. Damaging the toilets or flooding the sinks is rife.

Sexual activity, bullying and drug taking are not exactly rife but do occur.

You don't actually want your child to go to the loo during lesson time unless absolutely desperate as there is no supervision. During break times, we can (try to) supervise.

Additionally, if we let anyone go whenever they wanted, there'd be no free loos for the desperate child to use, anyway. They'd be full of kids doing the above because they hate learning and have zero attention span anymore.

And, finally, loads and loads of jobs where you can't go to the loo when you like. And, yes, teaching is one of them (7 and a quarter hours the other day I went without).

When someone posts at midnight about toilets and children having accidents on their periods, it might be a good idea not to share stories about that topic.

I think people are totally out of touch with how many children behave in school. Maybe because they tell their children if they don't like a rule, they should just ignore it. So children do.

It doesn't matter that behaviour is bad.

Being able to go to toilet is still a human right, that is more important.

Can you poijt out a specific law in the Human Right Convention saying students have a right to fuck around and go to toilet every 5 minutes?
They CAN go to the toilet, between lessons, that gives plenty of time and opportunities. No one unless having medical condition needs to go 10 minutes after the break.

You said "I've never gone to the toilet in 27 years of teaching". Teachers have more breaks than students though at school though. If you are a secondary school teacher.

Yes, I am a secondary teacher. On a full teaching day, I have no more breaks than the students. On days when I have a free, I do have one slot more free time than the students, but that doesn't necessarily mean I don't have times in those days when I have the same 2 hour maximum stretch between breaks as they do.

1. your well behaved child is safer going to the loo during break time as they are supervised

2. there would be no loos left if children were free range. They would all be broken and, as we know, there is no money for repairs.

3. a desperate child will still be allowed to go (teachers do use their discretion) but I'd would tell my own child to wait to go at break. Not just because it's the rules and because it disturbs learning less, but because they are safer.

I'm a teacher in a secondary school. A lot of students (not just a minority) ask constantly to go to the toilet. Many of them disrupt other classes on their way there. I can't focus on teaching 100% because I have to remember who is in the toilet and how long (sometimes they stay there for the whole lesson) this is a safeguarding issue as they are my students and I'm responsible of them. Constant disruption because in my lesson I have more students asking for going saying it's urgent but actually are laughing and messing around. It's out of control.

Many times they arrange with their friends from other lessons to go at the same time and they destroy the toilets (no cameras are allowed inside). I saw cleaners crying.

This is in an outstanding school with good results. Imagine what's happens in a difficult area.

If your child has issues they can get a toilet pass but we need a medical note.

Behaviour is out of control and very soon nobody will want to teach.

When I taught in a primary school I found this best answer to 'can I go to the toilet?' was 'yes, but you'll have to stay an extra 5 minutes at the end of the lesson'. It meant anyone who was desperate could go, but put off anyone who just fancied a little wander.

And every single point above.

People have no idea how bad behaviour has got.

Lol, you don't work in a British Secondary school, do you....
As for being expelled for blocking a toilet, it's nigh impossible to get a child expelled for stabbing, punching, kicking, verbal abuse, predatory behaviour and worse.

I think there Is also a general sense in secondary schools of - the adults should have total power over the teens. And the teens should not have much power at all.

Over whom do you think teenage school students should have power? Teachers need to have power over them. Believe me, it is much nicer to work in a school environment where you rarely need to exert that power. I've worked in two schools like that - it is bliss. The myth that teachers are petty tyrants who enjoy lording it over children is very tiresome. We want to be able to do our job, deliver a good education and protect other children from disruption and harm. That requires authority, I'm afraid. If anything, we do not have enough power. See my post above about exclusions. Well-behaved, and vulnerable, students woukd usually be only too glad to see teachers able to have greater power to solve poor behaviour, bullying, vandalism etc.

This was one of the things I found most difficult when I was teaching. Pupils weren’t allowed to go in lessons as they could go at break and lunch but realistically there wasn’t enough time or toilets so you’d always get kids asking and know it was genuine. I tried to be as fair as possible and always let kids go if they looked like they needed it but then you’d get others taking advantage and once I even got told off by a senior leader in front of my class for letting kids go. They still continued to ask me and I just wanted to pull my hair out!! Not a teacher anymore…not just because of this but many other things… damned if you do and damned if you don’t!

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to permanently exclude a student? It has be to drugs on site, a weapon or significantly violent behaviour.

If we excluded kids for that level of behaviour we would lose more than 30% of students a year.

And they'd just go to a different school and do the same thing anyway. A merry go round of about 30% of the secondary school population who would then become even more disruptive to others' learning as they'd not know the school, the teachers, the place in the curriculum. Fab idea!

And, yes, laughing at the idea that teachers have too much power over teens. We have none and they know it. If they want to stop us teaching, they can. And do.

Teens don't enjoy school either.

Everyone I talk to says that school was like a prison for them.

Teachers don't enjoy it and teens don't enjoy it.

Are teenagers ever asked for the lord feedback on how schools are run?

This is why I think homeschooling is better.

I don't know how that became that typo!

That was meant to say "are teenagers ever asked to give feedback on how schools are run"?

Yes, constantly. They often answer that they want to use their phones whenever they like and more junky food in the canteen.

And many of them answer that they'd like school to be stricter and behaviour of their peers to be better, so they can learn something and not have constant anxiety because of those who disrupt learning.