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Original poster

To think the pope has a point??

247 replies

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 13/05/2023 00:07

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65572153

I was in Italy recently and visited several large towns in the North. More dogs being walked than babies in buggies.

Pope Francis blesses a pregnant woman at the national conference looking at Italy's demographics in Rome

Pope Francis warns pets must not replace children in Italy

Pope Francis warns only the rich can afford to start a family, as Italy's birth rate hits new low.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65572153

OP posts:
kingtamponthefurred · 13/05/2023 09:14

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:07

For people that say that not having children is not selfish. My childless friends in their 40's spend their time going to concerts, drinking, going to expensive restaurants, new cars every few years, expensive holidays, expensive clothes, expensive home renovations. Indulging their pets. Playing their video games for hours at a time well into the night.

They may not want children, but they sure as heck want an eternal youth for themselves. Not sure what else I would call it?

Presumably you made your choices and they made theirs. Try not to let your jealousy show.

Sissynova · 13/05/2023 09:15

chilliplant634 · 13/05/2023 09:00

@Sissynova I agree with you. And this is what I mentioned in my previous posts- the cultural shift towards people not wanting children.

What is the solution then? Where will the money come from for higher wages for care workers?

Personally I think there needs to be huge cultural shift around taxation. The reality is too many people buy into the conservative idea of low tax/ small government without actually agreeing with it. They don’t actually want small government, they want subsidised transport, they want a well funded health system, they want public pensions, they want subsidised childcare etc and sooner or later we are going to have to accept that we need to pay for it.

AxolotlOnions · 13/05/2023 09:20

A celibate man and is the boss of roughly 500,000 other celibate people is telling others they are not having enough children. Ok.

gelatogina · 13/05/2023 09:23

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:07

For people that say that not having children is not selfish. My childless friends in their 40's spend their time going to concerts, drinking, going to expensive restaurants, new cars every few years, expensive holidays, expensive clothes, expensive home renovations. Indulging their pets. Playing their video games for hours at a time well into the night.

They may not want children, but they sure as heck want an eternal youth for themselves. Not sure what else I would call it?

I’d call it having a wonderful life!
Very sorry you made the wrong choice. Try not to show your jealously to your ‘friends’ tho I’m sure they already have enough pity for you…

Anyotherdude · 13/05/2023 09:26

Both of my DC have emphatically counted out of any idea of becoming parents (33 and 28) and so have many of their friends.
Having been astonished by the news that the Catholic Church we used to attend before becoming completely disillusioned by the shenanigans and politics (another story) in the diocese, has introduced card payment devices to their collection plate, cynical me is assuming that donations are down…

whumpthereitis · 13/05/2023 09:30

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:07

For people that say that not having children is not selfish. My childless friends in their 40's spend their time going to concerts, drinking, going to expensive restaurants, new cars every few years, expensive holidays, expensive clothes, expensive home renovations. Indulging their pets. Playing their video games for hours at a time well into the night.

They may not want children, but they sure as heck want an eternal youth for themselves. Not sure what else I would call it?

“A great time” would cover it.

—————-

Tbh I don’t care if I’m considered selfish. I’m happily childfree, and I’m sure as shit not inclined to have children I don’t want because someone else thinks I have a moral duty. They’re welcome to knock themselves out with that one.

I also have pets, because I want pets. I don’t have children because I don’t want children. As such, pets can hardly be considered ‘replacements’ for something that isn’t wanted in the first place.

I do think the Pope is conflating ‘issues’. More and more people are actively choosing to be child free, rather than feeling forced to not have children they otherwise want. Governments can look to support the latter, without coercing the former.

also, the fact that there’s an aging population in the west does not change the fact that the world is indeed overpopulated. I also question to logic in continuing to feed a pyramid scheme in the hope of holding off collapse, rather than looking to reconsider the viability of the system itself.

The Pope though, is the head of an institution that thinks it should have a say when it comes to women and our reproductive choices. And by ‘say’ I mean it’s an institution that wants to prescribe womanhood, regardless of what women themselves may want. Not exactly a bastion of female power or freedom.

DarkForces · 13/05/2023 09:31

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:07

For people that say that not having children is not selfish. My childless friends in their 40's spend their time going to concerts, drinking, going to expensive restaurants, new cars every few years, expensive holidays, expensive clothes, expensive home renovations. Indulging their pets. Playing their video games for hours at a time well into the night.

They may not want children, but they sure as heck want an eternal youth for themselves. Not sure what else I would call it?

I'd call it having an absolute blast. Why not enjoy life? We have a dd and still enjoy holidays, meals out and even the occasional piss up.

Honestly, the day I take advice or criticism from the pope about any aspect of my life is a very dark day.

And my dog is my very favourite child. She doesn't answer back (often) or raid my purse

FourTeaFallOut · 13/05/2023 09:32

Sissynova · 13/05/2023 09:15

Personally I think there needs to be huge cultural shift around taxation. The reality is too many people buy into the conservative idea of low tax/ small government without actually agreeing with it. They don’t actually want small government, they want subsidised transport, they want a well funded health system, they want public pensions, they want subsidised childcare etc and sooner or later we are going to have to accept that we need to pay for it.

Show quote history

But in a society in which the elderly population is far larger than the working population, and in which that aging population is increasingly childless, how do you think that will influence voting trends and strategies?

This isn't an academic problem. This is coming down the line.

To think the pope has a point??
whumpthereitis · 13/05/2023 09:33

AxolotlOnions · 13/05/2023 09:20

A celibate man and is the boss of roughly 500,000 other celibate people is telling others they are not having enough children. Ok.

Sitting their celibate asses on enormous wealth. Turns out the rich aren’t necessarily having kids either!

Perhaps they could redistribute Church assets to Italians that feel economically pressured out of having children.

BranchGold · 13/05/2023 09:34

Can I just comment how interesting I’ve found this thread, with lots of people expressing the different and complex views very well.

I don’t think there is a right/wrong approach, and it’s a massive multi layered issue of human existence that won’t have any easy answers, only more questions.

This is when mumsnet is great, a collection of (mostly) women musing on genuine issues, both personally and globally, over my morning cup of coffee.

💐

LadyEloise1 · 13/05/2023 09:37

@GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat ".........Historically (not that long ago either) they've expressed zero concern for the welfare of women and children re family planning,
contraception,
maternal health,
medically ill-advised frequency of pregnancies and birth,
marital rape and coercion,
domestic abuse,
inability to financially and emotionally support so many unplanned children, malnutrition.... "
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:37

There we have it now!
It is not too hard to see why the birth rate has fallen, because by stating factual information, people have responded accordingly with spiteful and hateful remarks.

We do live in a society where narcissism and self worship is revered and applauded. So it is no wonder people are responding this way. But people choosing not to have children is only part of the problem. The way we treat the elderly, our family our friends, these relationships are all being substitute for our own selfish needs. The whole human structure is in dramatic decline. That is the real problem!

MammaTo · 13/05/2023 09:39

People are choosing to have smaller families because life is too expensive to have one parent stay at home and running a house with multiple kids is too hard to do whilst working full time.
From my own experience I have older relatives who had 6-7+ kids but mum stayed at home and lived in the same street as her own mum, siblings, aunties so there was hands on deck to help. Also didn’t holiday abroad - ever.
But life today this isn’t really feasible, you live where it’s affordable, we love our holidays etc.

furryfrontbottom · 13/05/2023 09:43

DisquietintheRanks · 13/05/2023 09:13

The world is vastly overpopulated and no serious scientist thinks it couldn't run just as well with about half the population. In fact, as global warming makes large tracts of the planet's surface unlivable maybe some thought should be given to where those people are supposed to go.

Lowering birthrate causes some short term demographic / economic problems . Overpopulation causes far greater problems economically, socially and environmentally.

The world could function just fine without any human population at all, and eventually, it will.

SunnyEgg · 13/05/2023 09:45

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:07

For people that say that not having children is not selfish. My childless friends in their 40's spend their time going to concerts, drinking, going to expensive restaurants, new cars every few years, expensive holidays, expensive clothes, expensive home renovations. Indulging their pets. Playing their video games for hours at a time well into the night.

They may not want children, but they sure as heck want an eternal youth for themselves. Not sure what else I would call it?

I have dc but this is unduly bitter. I’m happy with my choices and others may be too. Good on them if they know dc are not for them and don’t have them as otherwise they may feel unhappy which impacts the dc too.

No issue with people making different decisions.

Re another post and that map below with the ratio it’d be interesting to see it for U.K. too

OutsideLookingOut · 13/05/2023 09:46

cosmiccosmos · 13/05/2023 07:40

So climate change is and will continue to have a catastrophic effect on the wold. We will see hundreds of thousands in fact probably millions of people migrating to the West. The world is over populated and unless population is addressed then it will get worse.

We need people to help old people because rather than them dying we keep them alive as long as possible, often with no quality of life. But we are told we need to have more babies so they can do these jobs. Most people don't want these jobs. They also don't pay well, certainly not enough to be able to rent/buy a house etc.

The Pope and all the people saying women need to have more babies can get lost. My role as a human is to live my life how I want to live it, not to produce babies for other people.

We don't need more people there isn't enough to go round, too many living in poverty.

This x1000

When will people wake up and see all these people in power want is a continuous supply of cheap labour to maintain the status quo?

The average peasant had more power after the Black Death when their numbers were low and they could pick and choose where to work.

When women are educated and have autonomy they choose to have less or no children. Nothing makes a woman more vulnerable than many many children,

Let the rich make their own labour slaves.

LordEmsworth · 13/05/2023 09:50

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 13/05/2023 00:24

I think there may well have been a creche at the vatican - then there was a highly controversial case if a young girl growing up in vatican city who disappeared and was suspected to have been abducted for dodgy reasons the general public will probably never find out

Citation needed.

whumpthereitis · 13/05/2023 09:51

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:37

There we have it now!
It is not too hard to see why the birth rate has fallen, because by stating factual information, people have responded accordingly with spiteful and hateful remarks.

We do live in a society where narcissism and self worship is revered and applauded. So it is no wonder people are responding this way. But people choosing not to have children is only part of the problem. The way we treat the elderly, our family our friends, these relationships are all being substitute for our own selfish needs. The whole human structure is in dramatic decline. That is the real problem!

50 cent laughing GIF

Ok

BranchGold · 13/05/2023 09:54

I definitely think choice and opportunity contributes to the declining birth rate in the western world.

With contraception preventing unwanted pregnancy, and the advancement of global travel/internet and education, we have a much greater awareness of what the world has to offer in terms of experiences and lifestyle.
I think this feeds in to why the poorest in a western society often times have the highest birth rates, as they don’t perceive themselves to have as many other opportunities such as career development or travel.

We also exist in a capitalist society, that views human beings as consumers and/or labour. It’s an unpalatable conversation that the inequality is at a tipping point, I really do think there needs to be some kind of shift in societal structures.

I’ve been reading recently about end stage capitalism being a form of repacked slavery/serfdom, that basically makes the participants feel better that they have some autonomy in the system, when the reality doesn’t demonstrate much freedom.

Runaway1 · 13/05/2023 09:54

LadyEloise1 · 13/05/2023 09:37

@GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat ".........Historically (not that long ago either) they've expressed zero concern for the welfare of women and children re family planning,
contraception,
maternal health,
medically ill-advised frequency of pregnancies and birth,
marital rape and coercion,
domestic abuse,
inability to financially and emotionally support so many unplanned children, malnutrition.... "
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Yup. I wouldn’t listen to anything the Catholic Church have to say - it all
cones from a place of the most intense misogyny.

OutsideLookingOut · 13/05/2023 09:57

Not to mention that so many men are not willing or it seems able to be equal parents and partners, many women don’t want to raise kids with them. Why should they? And most of the solutions seem to be placing the burden of childcare on grandparents but usually other women in society. I’m not interested in propagating that. It isn’t just cost of living but that many men have not evolved enough.

Sissynova · 13/05/2023 09:57

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:37

There we have it now!
It is not too hard to see why the birth rate has fallen, because by stating factual information, people have responded accordingly with spiteful and hateful remarks.

We do live in a society where narcissism and self worship is revered and applauded. So it is no wonder people are responding this way. But people choosing not to have children is only part of the problem. The way we treat the elderly, our family our friends, these relationships are all being substitute for our own selfish needs. The whole human structure is in dramatic decline. That is the real problem!

Your comment wasn’t factual though, I think you need to look up what a fact is before you can join a debate in any meaningful capacity.

You claimed your friend is selfish because she goes on holidays, to restaurants, plays video games and has pets!! It’s unbelievable for you to now turn around and call other people spiteful and hateful! Utterly unbelievable.

You have been the only one to make spiteful comments.

whumpthereitis · 13/05/2023 09:58

Runaway1 · 13/05/2023 09:54

Yup. I wouldn’t listen to anything the Catholic Church have to say - it all
cones from a place of the most intense misogyny.

Show quote history

Indeed. I’d be more inclined to listen to the guy outside Camden tube station that yells about dropping acid for Jesus than I would the Pope tbh.

Simonjt · 13/05/2023 09:59

Betterbear · 13/05/2023 09:07

For people that say that not having children is not selfish. My childless friends in their 40's spend their time going to concerts, drinking, going to expensive restaurants, new cars every few years, expensive holidays, expensive clothes, expensive home renovations. Indulging their pets. Playing their video games for hours at a time well into the night.

They may not want children, but they sure as heck want an eternal youth for themselves. Not sure what else I would call it?

In what way is any of that selfish?